Miracles

For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--

And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

2 Nephi 28:3-6

The mainstream interpretation of this scripture makes it difficult to identify these last days church's that are "built up, and not unto The Lord."

As LDS we read this and excuse ourselves and cast the blame on every religion but the one for whom the warning is written for: the LDS church. Who is being warned? Why would Nephi warn churches who will never read the book? Just so we can point the finger of accusation and pat ourselves on the back? 

This post will deal primarily with verse 6 and the idea of miracles, to see if we can get a better understanding of that term so that we can see if we are guilty as charged by Nephi, or if we can just go on singing "all is well, all is well". 

The primary question is does our church say:

"Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work."

Let's break it down:

1. Behold, hearken ye unto my precept;

2.  if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; 

(The "they" in this line is unnamed, it appears it is some unnamed persons who come among the church and "say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of The Lord". Why would someone come and tell the church that The Lord has performed a miracle, and why would the leaders of these false churches tell its people to "believe it not? Hopefully this will become clear as we move forward. 

3. for this day he is not a God of miracles; 

4. he hath done his work.

These are all interrelated, with the primary assertion that these last days churches built up to get gain will tell the people to hearken unto their precept. This is fulfilled by our church in so many ways, but the easy one, is that we follow "current doctrine" out of a handbook, instead of the pure gospel and doctrine of Christ as found in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on the earth, which Joseph remarked, that a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book. 

Miracles. Our church believes in miracles, I can hear them say, "We have miracles all the time!" And in a way I agree. Miracles happen. The question is, how does the most correct book define and describe miracles? Does it describe miracles simply as miraculous events, or something else? Before we turn to the Book of. Mormon, Let's look at an interesting and perhaps confusing quote by Jesus:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:22-23

Wow! People come to The Lord who have worked miracles in His name, why would God profess to not "know them" and command them to depart? Is it because these people were really wicked people and they somehow faked some miracles or perhaps stole Gods power. Growing up in the church this was how I understood other church's healing's to be be judged by God at the last day. Sure they performed miracles but they did so illegitimately, but in the end God will show them we had the priesthood and they did not, and he will cast them off. 

Let's assume we know nothing about the New Testament and the miracles Jesus performed in those accounts. If we could get that out of our minds for a few minutes and we take a look at this "most correct book", maybe we can find a new idea about "miracles". Maybe The Lord is telling us that for a miracle to be counted as qualifying of The Lord approval, it is a different kind of miracle than we typically think of. 

Here is Ammon speaking to the King:

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

(As an aside, this power of God's is His. No man can possess it, own it or have a monopoly on its distribution. We can have power given us to use, but it's God's Power and it is therefore it is through an association with the Powers of Heaven or God that man is given power. It is not something man just has by virtue of having priesthood confirmed upon us by other men. And there is not some guarantee a man will always have it. It is perishable because this priesthood is from God. He still ministers to those of sound mind and it is those to whom. He grants holiness and power.)

But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work MIGHTY MIRACLES therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings.

O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

Mosiah 8:13-20

According to this passage, miracles are "unfolding mysteries" through the "marvelous works" which he then equates with seeking wisdom and not only seeking her, but allowing her to rule over them!! This then is a different "miracle" or work indeed. 

Also miracles are:

--things which are past, 

--and also of things which are to come

--by them shall all things be revealed

--shall secret things be made manifest

--hidden things shall come to light

--things which are not known shall be made known by them

--things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

No "healing". No raising the dead. These miracles seem to have another function outside the physical realm in which we find ourselves. These miracles are all about having knowledge and things revealed to us, so that we can see and hear and understand, and then God is hoping, we will act. Why "works"? Why The reference to Wisdom? Who is she? Would it be a miracle in our day, in the LDS church to find her and have her rule over us? Hmm... A miracle indeed. 

6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them--yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.

Alma 23:6

Here the miracle is receiving knowledge, by "God working miracles IN them, and this is then compared to being "converted unto The Lord." How does working miracles "in" them, receiving knowledge of things past present and future, and being converted unto The Lord relate? Why is that a miracle? Who is involved and directly responsible? Is this something another man can give you? Is this miracle related to having God perform or press something "in" your flesh like the Brother of Jared account?

12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.

Why does Ammon "do" all things? What does that mean? Is that a miracle? Is Ammon's example here, exactly how someone gets power from God? By humility. and not claiming to be great, but praising God? 

13 Behold, how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell; and they are brought to sing redeeming love, and this because of the power of his word which is in us, therefore have we not great reason to rejoice?

14 Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell.

15 Yea, they were encircled about with everlasting darkness and destruction; but behold, he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love; yea, and we have been instruments in his hands of doing this great and marvelous work.

16 Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy, and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel.

Alma 26:12-16

Here we come to the whole purpose and divine law of miracles and what purpose they serve in Gods great plan. 

--"he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; 

--and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love"

--"how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell;"

--"and they are brought to sing redeeming love"

--"and this because of the power of his word which is in us"

The great miracle here is salvation. Salvation that comes from the divine light of Gods very Person and Presence. "Being brought into His everlasting light is to be brought into Gods very Presence; to see Him face to face! Encircled in His arms! Can you imagine? Loosed from the pains of hell! Singing redeeming love! Having the Power of His Word "in" us. Here we have this idea of "in" idea again. What is happening here?

What do we do with instruments? We perform them. How can we allow God to "perform" with, in and through us? Like Ammon said, "we have been instruments in his hands of doing this great and marvelous work."

What did Ammon do? I mean I can hear your doubts already: "I don't think that all that actually means to see God face to face. We don't need to do that until the next life!"

Let's look at the account to see exactly what Ammon did:

6 Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he knew that the dark veil of unbelief was being cast away from his mind, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness--yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God--

Alma 19:6

This is the same language of light, even marvelous light of His goodness infusing Lamoni's soul with joy. What does that look like? How do I get some of that? Why light? Is this a sparkly shiny manifestation? Or is this light and truth, or in other words, knowledge being given Lamoni? Or as mentioned earlier, is this knowledge of mysteries, past present and future?

Joseph said, "A man cannot be saved in ignorance", and "a man is saved no faster than he can get knowledge". It's not just a sparkly experience. It is light, it is truth, it is knowledge that is conveyed to the mind of Lamoni here. The content matters! What the spirit is saying to you is one way how you know whether the message is true or whether you are being deceived. Lamoni gets filled with saving knowledge and that infuses his soul with joy!  

"And it came to pass that he arose, according to the words of Ammon; and as he arose, he stretched forth his hand unto the woman, and said: Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou. For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name. Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit. ,

Alma 19:12-13

"I have seen my Redeemer"

This is face to face. This is the light of Gods countenance shining upon Lamoni and his house and redeeming them all from the fall. Ammon introduced them to these things and they found salvation in his message by receiving the message and then doing what Ammon invited them to do, and that is ride the chariot up the fiery conduit into the Presence of God!  Here is another example of the definition of salvation in the most correct book. This is the "precept" of the book which is required of us to perform or abide by in order to remove the condemnation.  And we just aren't good enough. But it is a come as you are party, and if you'll come to Him He will clean you up. And if you keep returning He will, grace for grace, bring you along to where and what you need to be. 

[The Queen] arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people! And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; 

Alma 19:29-30

This is what those who have this experience do: they sing the song of redeeming love! Can you feel to sing this song? If you have in the past, can you feel to do so now? Is this a one off event?

34 And behold, many did declare unto the people that they had seen angels and had conversed with them; and thus they had told them things of God, and of his righteousness.

Alma 19:34

These are the things you are going to have to encounter and become one with if you want to get closer to God. Adam waits for "messengers from Father", because that ministry by holy beings is necessary to give you the knowledge you need. 

Let's go to the lords ministry in Bountiful:

25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.

3 Nephi 19:25

30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.

3 Nephi 19:30

32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.

33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.

34 Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be uttered by man.

35 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracles, because of their unbelief.

36 Verily I say unto you, there are none of them that have seen so great things as ye have seen; neither have they heard so great things as ye have heard.

3 Nephi 19:31-36

Here again we have the same language as Ammon and King Lamoni. And we have even more clarification, because Jesus a smiles upon them and they become white as He is white! 

Christ could not show those in Jerusalem the miracles He showed the Nephites! What miracles? Because He showed the Jews healing and raising dead etc. Right? So what miracles does Christ lament he could not show the. Jews? Yes, He could not show them the saving miracles. The "Mighty" miracles. These words mean things. They are things. And there is a big difference between healing someone who is sick and redeeming them from the fall. Even non-Christians heal people! And surely Christians, including the Mormons heal by faith. This miracle though is one only heavenly beings and The Lord are able to perform! 

Let's take a look at the three disciples miracles:

5 And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men; and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in the name of Jesus.

4 Nephi 1:5

Finally! Some real New Testament "Jesus miracles"! Or are they?

Heal the sick

Blind to see

Deaf to hear

"Dead" to rise

These are the same things which Lamoni and his household, the Nephites with Christ, and all who receive this kind of salvation receive. Are we not all sick, blind, deaf and dead? I hope that these miracles are both temporal and spiritual, but I desire the spiritual more than the physical. Mankind has power given them to exercise faith to physically heal and even raise people from the dead. And many of those that do these kinds of miracles are going to be denied entrance by the Holy One of Israel who is the gatekeeper. Remember the scripture of Christ that He will command them who do these miracles to depart! Why? Is it because the miracles that those who know Him will perform are of a spiritual and saving nature? What is Gods work and glory? Yes, to bring men to pass Immortality and Eternal Life! So wouldn't His Mighty Miracles also do the same?

Let's return to the record to see if these healing's of sick, deaf, blind and dead are miraculous healing's or something else. 

13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, (these are the three who tarried, the same referenced in the above scripture about healing) and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.

14 And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.

15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."

Mormon 1:13-15. 

Verse 15 clarifies that the three disciples healing of blind, deaf and sick was spiritual in nature. For they come and minister to Mormon and he "tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."  He too entered the Divine Presence and was redeemed from the fall thereby. And all this in the context of despite the three being taken and no more miracles being wrought, they still came to Mormon and he still was redeemed!!

15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.

Have all the Powers of Heaven "passed"? Are They no longer? The answer is a resounding, "NAY!" For God has not ceased to be a God of miracles. What miracle? God has not ceased bringing men into His Presence to redeem them! He continues still! Will you behold The Lord?

18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

God will come to you. He has not ceased to perform this miracle of salvation and redemption! If so, it is because of our own unbelief or false notions of who God is. It is because we seek for the miracles that will get us cast off, and all the while we ignore His miraculous work and a wonder! It truly is miracle to save even one of us. 

And how does it begin? We see how to begin a few verses later: 

23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

24 And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord? Who can deny his sayings? Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord? Who will despise the works of the Lord? Who will despise the children of Christ? Behold, all ye who are despisers of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish.

27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.

28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

Mormon 9:15-29 

Miracles. The doctrine of Christ. Tied together. It is one work compounded in one and God is going to fulfill His word and His work. The question is, will you get out of bed with the whore? Will you arise and leave your false religious beliefs and false beliefs of God behind? Ask Jesus for whatsoever "things" ye lack yet. Ask with faith, not to consume it on your lusts, not to be able to tell some sycophant a fascinating experience or manifestation. Don't do that! Get The Lord to press into your own hand 20 stones. Do that!  Look at the following verses after Christ commands those who perform certain miracles but "knew Him not":

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

Matthew 7:24-25

Founded on a rock. 16 stones taken up to the mountain... And the wise man builds his house upon a rock! Coincidence?

Finally, here is how Christ can minister and perform His great miracle:

And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men--

Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

"after working many mighty miracles among the children of men"

Hopefully you have a better understanding of this phrase. For while He certainly performed healing's and raising the dead, these were signs and symbols of His real miracle: the atonement and doing all He did and still does for the redemption of mankind. His ministry and miracles continue still will you be a partaker?

Here is Christ about His thoughts on those who would deny Him His personal, face to face ministry among mankind:

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

3 Nephi 29:6-7

To all those who deny Christ can or must needs come minister to us in the flesh, Yes, now, To you, To me, In the flesh, Face to face. To all those who say we don't need to see Christ in this life. We just need ordinances in the temple and odds are we'll be exalted. To all those who preach a gospel of procrastination and hesitate or delay your repentance for another day because some leader hasn't told you this is important, and that you should or need to do it, or because you doubt or fear or just don't know where to start, or you claim, "God doesn't speak to me". Yea, Wo unto all who shall say that there can be no miracle wrought by Christ, even the miracle of Him coming and redeeming you from the fall because you also know these things and can stand in His Presence while in the flesh; while in this mortality. Wo unto to you shepherds for going not in and hindering those who would enter in! 

God is not dead, nor does He sleep! The bells toll for the dead prophets and heaven weeps and the devil laughs, because so many fall for the sophistry and misdirection. He is not done with His work! He has not given His power to men. He is a God of miracles and I know that because I know how much of a miracle it is for Him to save me. Only He can do it. He is personally involved in doing so. That's the only way. Don't allow some precept of men and the churches they've built up, to replace your relationship meant to be between you and God directly. His arms are extended still. Will he deny Him further?

"Repent, and come unto me", saith The Lord. 

For if you'll repent, the miracle He will perform will include: 

--unfolding mysteries" through the "marvelous works"

--seeking wisdom and not only seeking her, but allowing her to rule over you. This 

We shall see and know:

--things which are past, 

--and also of things which are to come

--by them shall all things be revealed

--shall secret things be made manifest

--hidden things shall come to light

--things which are not known shall be made known by them

--things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

And

-- receive knowledge

--have God working miracles IN you 

--be "converted unto The Lord

--in his strength do all things

--be brought into his everlasting light

--into everlasting salvation

--be encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love

--be loosed from the pains of hell

--be brought to sing redeeming love

--receive the power of his word which is in us

--have the dark veil of unbelief cast away from your mind

-- have the light, light up your mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which           was a marvelous light of his goodness

--yea, have this light infuse such joy into your soul

--have the cloud of darkness having been dispelled

--have the light of everlasting life lit up in your soul

--to be overcome in your natural frame

--to be carried away in God--

-- to see angels and converse with them; 

-- be told them things of God, and of his righteousness by these angels

-- to have Jesus bless you as you pray unto him

-- to have his countenance smile upon you 

--have the light of his countenance shine upon you 

--to be as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus, even a whiteness that does exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there is nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof

--Heal the sick in you 

--make the Blind in you to see

-- and the Deaf in you to hear

-- and the "Dead" in you to rise, be a flame on earth again

-- to have Him smile upon you again

-- to be white again, even as Jesus.

-- to have Christ pray words that tongue cannot speak, neither can be written by man the words

-- to hear and bear record; and have your heart open and understand in your heart the words spoken by Him

-- to be shown greater miracles

-- to see so great things and to hear so great things 

--to taste and know of the goodness of Jesus 

--speak with new tongues

-- to take up serpents

-- to drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt you 

--they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

-- to be counted as one who shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.

-- to have the rain descend, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon your house; and have it fall  not: for it is founded upon a rock

--to be able to declare:

"I have seen my Redeemer!"

Now that would be a miracle indeed!!

Bishops "court"

January 22, 2015

The Bishop called again yesterday (the next day after his first call) and set up a meeting for last night at 7:45. Wow! That was quick. So we went. 

He asked me many of the same questions as he had on the phone the day before. 

Bishop: how did you come to the writings of this man Denver Snuffer and when? When did you begin to meet in this group? How often do you meet? Do you partake of the sacrament? 

Me: well, Denver really had nothing to do with my approach to God in the beginning. I came across a talk by one of the a Quorum of the Twelve, Bruce R. Mckonkie, called the 10 blessings of the priesthood. The last three I believe are, to be sealed up unto eternal life, to have ones calling and election made sure, and to approach the throne of grace and see and speak to God face to face. This was a prophet seer and Revelator, remember! Later, I came across Abraham 1:2-4:

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

Abraham 1:2-4

I paraphrased the above scripture, and told the bishopric that I too was a follower of righteousness, and desiring to be a greater follower as Bruce R. had spoken of, and now Abraham was saying the same thing and more, I decided that if God were no respecter of persons, I too might do as James directs (James 1:5) and ask God for greater light and truth concerning the fathers and the rights of the priesthood of the fathers from Adam down. 

I also quoted Ether 3:13:

Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

What is happening here? I asked. How is it that the Brother of Jared is redeemed from to he fall? Well, the scripture is clear, he is redeemed from the fall when he enters into the Presence of Christ! This is the same thing that Bruce R. and Abraham, and Joseph are all telling me! Maybe there is something here I need to pay attention to! 

Then, upon reading the lectures on faith I realized that to obtain these blessings I must sacrifice everything. All I had and all I was and am, I must be willing to offer up. How could I think to be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven with those saints that had offered their all, their lives, their possessions, they were sawn asunder and crucified upside down; how could I think to be comfortable or saved if I had not offered the same offering and sacrifice? 

I mean, what was it Abraham was sacrificing when he took Isaac up the mountain to  kill him? Sure it was his son, his birthright son, but Abraham was also offering up the very blessings and covenant that he had just received from God a short time earlier! Abraham was sacrificing his very salvation and exalted promises when he offered up Isaac, because how do you have posterity as the sands of the sea if you murder the only birthright son? So coming upon all of this material in the scriptures, because this was in 2005, and I wouldn't come across the writings if this man Denver Snuffer for another 5-6 YEARS! I didn't read his first book until either late 2010 or 2011. I was lost in all this stuff, all alone until like a ray of light someone showed me Denver's first book, The Second Comforter Conversing with The Lord Through the Veil, and when I got that it was very helpful (huge understatement!) in sorting some things out and correcting some things I was doing that was preventing me from going any higher. 

So I just continued in this space of time before I came across Denver's writings, seeking God. I asked for the same manifestation that Joseph, Nephi, Abraham and Mahonri received, and Bruce R. promised. And I offered up all I had to The Lord. And you know, I don't know if I thought He'd really take it, but I offered it all and He took me up on the offer. At the time I was living in Camelot (that's what I called it) I had a huge house worth $700,000, half paid off, I had all the trappings, I mean I had a boat, and a classic 67 Camaro, a 40' 5th wheel, filled with toys and quads and motorcycles, a cabin on 25 acres, I had standing in the community and in the ward, I was living in Camelot! I was on top of the world. And I offered it all up. And in His Mercy, He took it all, and it was and is all worth it and I'd do it all again to know The Lord, and I do know The Lord, because He has come to me and He has sent His angels, and I too can testify that I KNOW Joseph saw what he saw because I have had my own first vision experience and I have seen and therefore know some things as a result of that. But that doesn't really make me so special as you might think, and I mean that! We all should have a first person witness of what Joseph saw. We all should be witnesses to that, and we all can be. I am no one special and I still suck, but The Lord will talk to you guys if you will make the attempt to get to know him, but you know, if people ask about going on this path, I discourage them from do so, because it will require all of you and once you begin you can't go back, so if you're going to proceed then be ready to go all the way, and you've got to be willing to give up what The Lord requires of you. 

So I've given it all up and I will give whatever The Lord requires, even if you cast people like me away, if I have to choose then I choose The Lord. If Joseph were here today I'm not even sure he would be welcome. Look, you think I'm crazy and hearing voices and talking with God and seeing angels, but isn't that what Joseph did too? Why aren't we seeking that? I remember one story about Joseph getting a fistful size piece of bread and a cup of wine each, and taking the sacrament with some guys and then he laid down on his back and told them to lay their heads on his arms, and they all looked up into Heaven and Joseph called down angels! Who doesn't want that? We should all be doing that. Let's do that together. (I nodded to the bishopric inviting them to partake of the sacrament with me; they just stared at me like I was crazy!) You see, the fruit is the test. How do you know the truth of things unless there is a test?

When The Lord began to instruct me using the scriptures to be baptized and partake of the sacrament, I resisted. I refused for some time to believe I should proceed and I required more information from Him. I fasted and prayed for months to know His will. I told Him how could I do such things without the key holder? I grew up in the church you know. I knew I wasn't supposed to do such things, heck, they won't even let families do it at family reunions, although they used to, and they used to do sacrament twice on Sundays, so The Lord pointed out it was a policy not HIS doctrine. How could I know I asked? "You have My word before you, will you wrest it to your own destruction?" The Lord has a way with words ya know? 

What would you all do? The Lord asked me, "are you going to obey men or Me?" What would you do? I told The Lord I lacked authority to perform the ordinances, and The Lord, in His own voice declared to me from Heaven giving me authority and Power to baptize and to bless and administer the sacrament.

 (See JST Genesis 14: 28: "It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, NOT BY MAN, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;        

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name. JST, Genesis 14:28-29.

 So this cannot be given from one man to another "although it may be conferred upon them it is true", it cannot come and does not come with any power at least, until one hears it from Gods own voice to the individual.

This is a private worship. This is not public. I have never criticized the church publicly. And if I have taken note of problems in the leadership or institution in private, it is because I believe it useful to see things as they really are so that I don't misplace my trust and begin to believe again that God has given his power to man which the most correct book condemns.

"5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and HE HATH GIVEN HIS POWER TO MEN"; 2 Nephi 28:5, emphasis mine. 

I do not question your keys and authority, nor do I question the church's. Go your way in peace and exercise your authority, that is a public service and duty and I do not question you or the church in how or what way you perform things, but I'm pleading with you to please leave me alone and let me go my way in peace, and worship God privately according to the dictates of my own conscience. When. Joseph gave that he was referencing action to cast out a man who "erred in doctrine". 

Joseph said, when a brother Brown was being threatened with excommunication for his error in doctrine: 

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine."  

Here Joseph equates being allowed to remain in full fellowship with "being a good man", not according to "erring in doctrine".  You can see the similarities with this story and Article of Faith 11:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege. Let them worship how where or what they may."

Bishop, you don't have to take any action against me. You don't have to listen to some higher-up telling you you must take action. I am no threat to you or your keys or the church. I am an innocent man and am worthy to hold a temple recommend. Let me worship in private with the authority given me, and I will let you exercise you public keys to the ward. We don't need to be at odds. I don't want to nor have I ever fought the church. I want to be a Mormon and seek the face of God privately. 

We still believe the idea that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book and a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other. Joseph also said the nearer a man is to God, the clearer are his views and perceptions. So if obeying the precepts are what brings me closer to God and being closer to God gives me clarity, then I am going to obey the truest books precepts. 

So after The Lord gave me authority to perform ordinances, The Lord told me to test the fruits of doing them according to Alma 32. (See Alma 32) And what's the test of Alma 32? It's to plant the seed or to do something, and then watch it to see if it grows, or expands the soul, and whatsoever expands the soul is good. So I tried the word of God to see if there was fruit, or if my soul expanded upon performing the ordinances, and I can tell you from first hand experience that my soul has expanded because of my following my Lord and Savior down into the waters of baptism, and then partaking of the sacrament with bread and wine as the scriptures outline with specificity to do. The scriptures say, "by their fruits shall ye know them", and the fruit of following the doctrine of Christ and performing His ordinances as He ordained them and doing them "oft" as He commanded, (see Moroni 6:6) has born wonderful fruit. 

So I ask again, please let me go my way in peace and worship God in a private transaction between myself and The Lord, and I will continuer to not challenge yours or the church's keys and authority to officiate publicly. I do not see these as contradictory. One is public, the other is private. Please have mercy on me and just let me go. I expect you to allow me a temple re come d and full fellowship. I can answer the temple recommend questions with a clear conscience before God. 

So the question is, can the church just let people pursue Christ by following the precepts of the most correct book, or will they cast them all out? I'm willing to see the foibles of men and still sustain them, fulfill callings, pay tithing, and serve when I can within the church. Are men perfect? All would agree no. So why do we expect them to never lead us astray? Of course they could make mistakes, but that doesn't really bother me, because my faith is in Christ, and not men. I can remain faithful to the church, pursue God privately, why can't the church allow this? I am no threat to yours or the church's authority. I have no desire to lead or be promoted up the ladder of leadership. I just want to be a Mormon and pursue God as outlined in the scripture, and since the church is not teaching what the scriptures teach, why are they bothered if I pursue those things privately, in what are for all intents and purposes, different ordinances completely, than what I am offered within the church? I am not complaining they are doing it differently than scripture, but I do claim the right to pursue Him according to scripture even if the church isn't. That does not make me apostate. 

The Bishop then read article of faith 5 and 6 and told me the church believes these are the correct way to see authority. 

I agreed, and mentioned that Paul was called and ordained by God outside the then existing twelve apostles and so if we are following that model, we should expect for apostles to arise directly under Gods hand outside the quorum of twelve today. If you want to follow that model, I completely agree, but you cannot use it to say God can't do his own work, whenever He wants to, with whomever He wants to. 

As for laying in of hands, whose hands? What does it mean to be called of God? Have you been called of God? By prophecy? Who would be more "by those who are in authority" then angels and God Himself? So if you want to say that's the law of the church, I agree, but let's not say "called of God", and then you quote me some man who ordained you with no mention of God or prophecy or laying on of hands by angels like Joseph was. Those are two different things. 

The Bishop said, "I understand what you're saying, but that is not the current doctrine of the church. You must get in alignment with the current doctrine or we will have to escalate action against you."  

I replied, so the current doctrine isn't scriptural? Shouldn't we go by the "most correct book"? 

Bishop: "we don't go by what is in the scriptures, we go by what is in the current doctrine of the church."

Me: you mean the handbook? Of which I don't have and haven't read? 

Then they invited us out of the room for them to deliberate. This was the first moment we realized we had been on trial the whole time! No one mentioned they were questioning us to make some judgement on us, we had simply been asked in to "talk". 

We returned and they handed down the verdict:

"Informal probation, no sacrament (private or public), no priesthood functioning (private or public), no speaking up in meetings, and he asked for my temple recommend. 

I said, "I do not consent to giving you my recommend. I am worthy to hold it, correct?" And the Bishop nodded yes. "So I cannot give it to you as you are asking for it unjustly, and I am an innocent man, worthy before God and you to hold it, so I cannot in good conscience give it to you"

"As to my priesthood, D&C 121 says, 'the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the Powers of Heaven.' As recent as right before this meeting The Lord told me, 'your connection to Heaven will not be affected in this meeting', so you cannot really take away something that you are not involved in anyway. That priesthood I hold is inseparably connected to God, and you are not a party to that, so I will be keeping my priesthood thank you. 

I told you before in our phone conversation and again tonight that I was in a 40 sacrament fast, and to stop would require me to break covenants with God. So if you are requiring me to chose between God and your judgement, then I will follow God. I will abstain in the public meetings as you request, but privately I will continue to do as God directs."

He replied as to me not giving him my recommend: "this isn't about your worthiness to hold a recommend. It's about you doing things that are not in line with the current church doctrine."

I said, "you mean the handbook? Because I'm simply following the scriptures, and I have done so while remaining in honor to the church and my covenants therein. This is a private matter between me and God."

He said, "you must conform to the current church doctrine not what's in the scriptures, or we will escalate this to a disciplinary court, well, that's a negative way to say it, it's really more of a council of love, because we love you to death. We just love your family! (This was the second time I had ever met with him! It was "love feigned", because love never was between us. We simply don't know each other)

He said they would give me two weeks to think it over and then they wanted to meet again. 

I agreed cheerfully, and said, "we don't need two weeks, I am following The Lord, but anytime you want to talk I'd be happy to do so"

My Bishop Called...

January 20, 2015

Bishop just called me out of the blue, and asked me:

1. Are you meeting with people every Tuesday in some sort of group to study?

Me: "not really. There is no organized meeting or group. I am studying and seeking God all day every day. All I do in any if my spare time, is read and study and discuss Gods word. It is a constant part of my life. So, Yes, people call and ask to come over, and it always turns into a discussion of the gospel of Christ because that's what I'm all about: The Gospel of Christ. It's usually different people and there is no organized meeting or group or even any kind of set time. Many times I end up studying alone or with my family. Sometimes a group of people shows up. Sometimes it's me and one other. So am I meeting with others? Yes. Is it some organized meeting or 'every Tuesday' kind of meeting? No. 

2. Bishop: How often would you say you meet?

Me: I'm seeking The Lord 24/7. It's an everyday, all the time kind of thing for me. There really isn't a spare moment when I'm not pursuing the gospel, meaning the voice of God and angels speaking to me, and studying the words of Joseph and the scriptures to learn more. I'd say I meet with people 4 or 5 days a week. But like I said, it's not organized. It's just my friends and family talking about the gospel and doctrine of Christ. Is that a problem?

3. Bishop: Have you ever in the past, or are you currently partaking of the sacrament at any of these meetings, or are you studying the writings of a man named Denver Snuffer?

Me: "I believe that the church still believes the statement of Joseph Smith, 'that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, and a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book.' Notice this does not say it's the most correct book, therefore we must read it, rather it says we must 'abide by its precepts.' Another statement by Joseph is, 'the nearer a man is to God, the clearer are his perceptions and the greater his understandings'. I take these statements seriously and I have acted in faith to attempt to obtain these blessings. 3 Nephi is clear: we are to follow the doctrine of Christ and to partake of the sacrament 'oft'. The reason to partake oft, is to get closer to God. (See 3 Nephi 18;Moroni 6:6) The reason to get closer to God is to have clearer perceptions. Most of my life I thought the "spirit" was the spirit, and that having it, secured for me clear and correct answers just because I had "the spirit". From Joseph's statement we can see that the "spirit" is completely dependent upon our proximity to God, and not our possession of it as some sort of guarantee. The closer we are, the clearer our views, the farther we are from God then, the cloudier our views. I don't want to be deceived, so I need to be as close to God as possible. So, yes, I take the sacrament oft, as commanded by Jesus Christ in the most correct book on the earth, so that I may be closer to God, so that my perceptions and views may be more clear, so that I can see things as they really are as I work my way back into the Presence of Christ. 

As to Denver Snuffer, yes I read his writings. If you have ever read his writings, you know most of it is quoting scripture, primarily the Book if Mormon. I don't agree with everything he says, but I do know that his writing is filled with light and truth and I have come closer to God by reading his writings and doing as he suggests. But he is only quoting and pointing to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so if you want to criticize him you would also be criticizing Christ's words, Joseph's words as well as Nephi, James, Moroni, Alma and a host of other prophets. Is there a problem with me reading his writings?

Bishop: "no, no, thank you for being candid and forthright."

Me: "sure. How else would I be? I have nothing to hide. I am simply following Christ's words in the most correct book, and I expect you to allow me to worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, as article of faith 11 directs. You know, we in the church may hear that and say, 'yeah, worship according to the dictates of your own conscience, but do it outside the Mormon church.' To which I would say, do you know the history of that idea to allow others to worship as they will by Joseph our founding prophet is all about us as Mormons having different doctrinal views? In Kirtland they were going to excommunicate some man and Joseph said they shouldn't be doing that, "that sounded too much like the Methodists", and we should "leave the old man alone". Joseph saw a Mormon church which accepted different views among its members, even saying Mormonism had no creeds. So, I ask you to let me worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, and I will do the same for you. 

I mean, that's why I don't attend all my priesthood and Sunday school classes is because I don't believe I have the right to proselyte and get people all riled up at church. If someone asks me, I will tell them what I believe, but I don't want any trouble with the church and I don't believe everyone must believe as I do, and I don't go around pushing this on others, and in return, I ask to also be left alone to worship God privately and still remain a full member with all my rights. I'm worthy to enter the temple, and so I expect you to allow me to continue to attend. I sustain the prophet, I'm not causing trouble, so please let me be. 

I'm not trying to convince you of my way of thinking Bishop. But I am asking you to let me pursue God as I will and remain a Mormon. The  Mormon church is the only church I have ever belonged to and I do not see myself ever belonging to any other earthly church or institution. I know Joseph is a prophet of God. And I don't mean that I just "really really believe" kind of know, what I mean is, I KNOW Joseph is Gods prophet because I too have done as James directs and asked God, and I have had my own first vision experience revealed to me. I know God lives because I have seen Him. The Lord has spoken also to me and I now know for myself that Joseph is who he said he was and more. I speak with God and His angels and so should you. We all should. This is what Mormonism is, or at least it should be. 

Bishop: "I'd like to meet with you soon, would you stop partaking of the sacrament until we can meet together?"

Me: "bishop, out of respect to you I would normally try to do what you requested of me, but I am currently in the middle of a 40-day sacrament fast, partaking of the sacrament every day for 40 days. Like I said, I need Christ's Spirit to allow my views and perceptions to be clearer, and in obedience to the precepts of the Book of Mormon; the way to do that is by partaking oft as commanded. I would be willing to not facilitate partaking with others in groups until we meet if you like, but I cannot stop partaking personally in private right now or I would be breaking a covenant I have with God.  

Let me be clear: when it comes to determining how I judge what to believe or not believe, and what to do or not do, the scriptures, and specifically the book of Mormon is what I go by. So if it comes down to a person or God then I choose God and the scriptures over the precepts of men, just like the temple tells me to. 

Bishop: how far along are you in this fast? When would you be finished with it? 

Me: I am about in the middle, I have another 20 days or so. 

(The Bishop never responded to my offer to abstain from group partaking, so I have proceeded to continue to meet and partake, as he never said anything else about it, therefore, I offered but he never acknowledged or accepted my offer)

Bishop: so are there any members of our ward who currently or who have ever in the past met with you or partaken of the sacrament? 

Me: "I just couldn't say"

Bishop: well, like less than zero or between zero and a hundred?

Me:  "I just couldn't say. You see, that is a private matter between each individual and God. I just couldn't say. If you want to interject yourself between God and someone else then go ahead, but I won't do that, so I just can't say.  That is between God and them, and I guess you, if you decide to interject yourself between God and them. 

See, I take this idea of performing ordinances seriously. I don't believe anyone should just run out there and start doing ordinances. I discourage that. I prayed and fasted for months trying to know if I should bless and partake of the sacrament. The Lord kept encouraging me to proceed. I refused to do so until God told me He gave me authority and Power to perform the ordinance by His own voice out of Heaven to me. Once He did that, then I began to partake in private. This is a private matter between God and me. I am answering your questions because you have asked nice, but do not mistake my good manners as that I believe I must answer any of this. I'm answering because you asked nice and I feel ok doing so. So many people came over, especially at first, who did not have authority from God. That is one reason I have met with so many others. Everyone wants a valid ordinance, and I could provide that in the interim.  But anyone can get that from God themselves, so I simply helped people on their own path to getting their own witness from God, I can point to scripture, but they need to get it from God themselves. 

Bishop: well thank you again for your forthrightness and I'd like to meet with you soon. 

Me:  sure! Anytime. I would love to sit down with you.