tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-69022974336721016412024-02-08T06:43:51.927-08:00Awaken Oh my soul!Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-91988786244444503122020-06-16T10:39:00.000-07:002020-06-16T10:39:35.764-07:00Learning of the Jews
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<b><u><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 107%;">Learning of the Jews</span></u></b></div>
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2 Nephi 11: 2 RE<span style="font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 107%;"></span></div>
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“For I came out from Jerusalem,
and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews, and I know that the Jews do
understand the things of the prophets. And there is none other people that
understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it
be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.” </div>
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Nephi’s eyes beheld the things of
the Jews, and because he beheld the things of the Jews he had first hand, first
person knowledge of Jewish learning and its effect on the religious mind and in
turn the effect of that mind upon correct worship and correct religious belief.
Nephi says that the “Jews do understand the things of the prophets”. This
statement, outside the context of what Nephi says before and after it, appears
to be Nephi endorsing the “learning of the Jews”. We will look deeper to see
what Nephi says before and after this statement, and most importantly we will
look at what Nephi does with his firsthand knowledge of what the learning of
the Jews leads to and how to avoid those negative consequences.</div>
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As an aside, the scriptures are
not a series of sound bites that can be understood in a vacuum or in isolation
from the entirety of the Word of God. Scripture clarifies, often seemingly
contradicts itself, and qualifies meaning based upon the context of ideas and
thoughts God is attempting to communicate to mankind in a particular moment in
particular contexts to teach lessons, spread across the vastness of the
scriptural texts, and often hidden in parables and mystery writing. If you
remove this statement or any other from the context and complete meaning of the
passages in which they are placed, meaning can be corrupted or confounded. What
does Nephi mean when he writes about Jewish understanding of prophets? Is it an
endorsement of Jewish learning? As a ruler, Nephi is given of God to be the one
authorized to measure or weigh things and to draw out truth or discern between
two or more things. How does Nephi measure or weigh the learning of the Jews?</div>
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Let’s look deeper at the words:
“there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto
the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of
the things of the Jews.” Let’s parse this. This is not an endorsement of Jewish
learning. It is simply saying that no one understands the prophecies the <i>same
way</i> the Jews understand the prophecies. There is no validation of the
learning of the Jews here, only a statement that Jews understand like Jews
understand, and if you are not a Jew you will not understand like they do
unless you are taught like a Jew. There is no implicit validation of the
learning of the Jews in Nephi’s statement. </div>
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It’s like saying, Englishmen
understand the things of prophets like Englishmen understand things, and unless
you are a Englishman or have been taught like a Englishman, you will not
understand the prophets like a Englishman. There is no value attached to the
learning except to say that unless you understand things a certain way you
won’t understand like those who understand them that way. Jews understand the
prophets like Jews or those who have been taught like Jews. That’s it. Jews get
Jewish learning that non-Jews don’t get. Whether Nephi endorses and vouches for
the learning of the Jews is not found in this statement alone about Jews
understanding prophets, rather, Nephi’s endorsement or ruling, is found in what
he states in the verses around this one, and in what he <b><i>does</i></b>!
Nephi is being clever, and how we read and interpret the words tells God about
what is in our hearts. Will we follow Nephi’s example and instruction? Or will
we seek the same learning of the Jews that has led to captivity and the Judgement
of God?</div>
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What source for your understanding
do you seek? For Gods ways are not man’s ways and true understanding of the
meaning of the Word requires the honest seeker of Gods Truth to seek Gods ways
and accept God’s definitions. The greatest and most trustworthy source of the
authentic Word of God that is True and Faithful to Gods mind, way, and
definitions, is found in the Book of Mormon. If more people trusted the
meanings given us in this book contention would disappear from among those
willing to do so. Don’t contend against the Word of God. Don’t do that. But if
you do, understand that Nephi is warning you that to do so is to risk God’s
judgement and you are going to find yourself in the dark and worshipping abominations
before Him. </div>
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I gave a talk on confounded
language that addresses this issue, go listen to it, or read it for more detail
on perception and understanding according to Gods ways.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is a continuation of that topic and was
edited out because of time restrictions put upon me in giving that talk. What
is your source for truth? The learning of the Jews? The Holy Spirit? The Book
of Mormon? What is Nephi, who saw our day, attempting to communicate to us?
That we must understand the prophets like Jews? If that is the case we need
Jewish commentators and scholars to come and teach us and educate us in Jewish
understanding so that we “get it”. If the learning of the Jews is not what
Nephi is testifying of, what is Nephi’s solution to fixing our awful situation?</div>
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<![endif]-->Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-80851559779906254482020-01-19T15:00:00.001-08:002020-01-19T15:25:59.019-08:00The Eyes of the Blind Shall See<br />
I spoke this last weekend in Provo Utah on the idea of confounded language. Here is the link for the transcript for any who are interested in reading my comments. This is a vital concept to understand for all those interested in bringing again Zion and this paper is a very basic introduction to the idea and is in no way a comprehensive discussion. Much more could be said on the subject and my hope is that this will begin a dialogue on how to act within your person and then within your sphere of influence to bring about some of the last days prophecy by sanctifying yourself according to the laws ordained before the foundations of the world to do so. <br />
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The talk was based on Isaiah 6 and Isaiah's prophetic injunction to preach that "seeing they perceive not and hearing they understand not." This is more about the foreknowledge of God in how the people would receive the message than in Isaiah's ability to blind and deafen his audience, nevertheless, it is clear as the talk will outline, that the default condition of the carnal man and woman is to see and perceive not, hear and understand not, and that it is Gods work and glory to reverse this condition and return light to those who sit in darkness and understanding to those who sit in the shadow of death, and to heal the lame that they may publish peace upon the mountains. (Luke 1)<br />
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<a href="https://1drv.ms/w/s!AqyYTekkdC6Lgiyeil78g7bcj5XV">The Eyes of the Blind Shall See</a><br />
<br />Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-12476113698724817472017-10-29T14:34:00.001-07:002017-10-29T14:34:29.600-07:00Accountability Part 2<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">"Until we have perfect love we are liable to fall and <u>when we have a testimony that our names are sealed in the Lamb's book of life we have perfect love</u> and then it is impossible for false Christs to deceive us...</span><span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">many of us have gone at the <u><b>command of the Lord in defiance of everything evil,</b></u> and obtained blessings unspeakable, in consequence of which our names are sealed in the Lamb's book of life, for the Lord has spoken it. It is the privilege of every Elder to speak of the things of God; and could we all come together with one heart and one mind in perfect faith the veil might as well be rent today as next week, or any other time, and if we will but cleanse ourselves and covenant before God, to serve Him, it is our privilege to have an assurance that God will protect us" section one</span><span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;"> </span><span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;"> TPJS, heading: Perfect Love a Safeguard Against Falling from Grace, section One</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">In defiance of everything evil, or in other words in defiance of all that denies the Holy Ghost, and denies access to the Holy Ghost for any soul on earth that has knowledge, for as Christ said, "Who having knowledge have I not commanded to repent?"</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">1. Little children are not all children under the age of 8. Little children according to the Book of Mormon and D&C are infants. (Mosiah 3: 16-18; D&C 93: 38-41) To assume Mormon is referring to all children under age 8 when he refers to "little children", is conflating his words with a future restriction Mormon knew noting of. Mormon knew little children were infants or those without knowledge because he had just abridged King Benjamins record teaching this truth. (see Mosiah 2-4)</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">2. Accountability is not related to age which is arbitrary and forbidden by God. (see Moroni 8:15)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">3. Accountability is knowledge and understanding. (D&C 29:49; Mosiah 2-4; Moroni 8:19)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">4. Because the early saints asked for a specific age they were given one; Joseph was influenced by Rigdon who was directly involved with the JST translation specifically, and by the Campbellites who brought with them all of their false traditions and detoured the restoration God was attempting. Part of that false belief was a question of age of accountability. Instead of Using agency and personal responsibility allowing each to decide for themselves by the Holy Spirit, when to baptize using the standards of knowledge and understanding, the saints demanded an age to let them off the hook from deciding according to the Spirit on a case by case basis, thereby obtaining an idol or king, or in Josephs words a creed to tell them what to do. (see PTR on Campbellite perversion of restoration)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">5. This is part of the perversion of the Campbellites coming aboard, along with them desiring priesthood offices instead of real connection to the Powers of Heaven as their priesthood. These two are actually related, as restricting baptism from those who have knowledge actually restricts priesthood and prophecy from those who are most recently arrived from the other side of the veil. This restriction stunts them because they know they are sinful and they know Christ can fix them, but tradition denies them the Holy Ghost and fulness of fellowship with Them. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">6. This is similar to God forbidding a king, and then allowing it when the people asked for it. It was Gods will not to have a king. It was allowed due to hardness of heart and unbelief. So Kings are in scripture among Gods people but God would prefer it otherwise. So too we have age restriction and accountability as knowledge in scripture, but that doesn't mean God sanctions both.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">7. This is the reason we have been commanded to replace D&C 20. If we are going to replace section 20 because the Campbellites detoured the restoration by demanding a New Testament church rather than an ancient one, conflating priesthood with church office, we should also restore and return age of accountability to its proper and Godly form, or at least account for Gods word proclaiming such. If priesthood is an association with the Powers of Heaven or the Holy Ghost, then restricting it from those who know but cannot yet receive the ordinance denies that fellowship based only on age despite the understanding of the individual. This would make God partial.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">8. Age 8 requirement then is a false tradition of men, and is not of God although God allows it for the hardness of our hearts. It stifles His work, prevents the Holy Ghost from coming to the tender branches among us and goes against His very nature, attributes and perfections, as He is just and does not judge one child from the next on so arbitrary thing as the ticking of the clock. (See Moroni 8)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">Because I believe accountability is based on knowledge and understanding, I have taught my children the wages of sin as commanded me. I have also taught them about redemption through Christ through faith on His Name and repentance followed by the “firstfruit of repentance”, which is baptism. After they were taught this they are accountable because they have knowledge of sin and how to come to Christ to repair that breach. They cease to be an infant, or a being who doesn't know or is ignorant. The child gets it. It’s a Bongard problem. They know they don't know things and they know they make mistakes and sin. They want a way to come to Christ, but the traditions of our fathers prevent them from doing so until they become a certain age. This denies the Holy Spirit. This is forbidden by God. Using the same criteria for baptism for all mankind is just and is Gods will. For He is the same yesterday today and forever.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue"; font-size: 12px;">Telling children fairy tales about accountability is akin to telling them Santa and the Easter Bunny are real and then later telling them mommy and daddy were lying the whole time for fun. We are teaching them through this false tradition of age restricted access to God, an incorrect attribute about our Lord. That He is arbitrary. That He will save one child for being innocent due to age, and damn another because they are a day older. It tells them that despite knowing of their own sin and desire to repent, God doesn't hold them accountable despite their knowledge. It ingrains into the psyche a false belief or understanding of God. This is part of our condemnation we currently struggle under. Doing what the Book of Mormon says, requires us to shed this false tradition of our fathers and teach our children in light and truth (D&C 93;38) by allowing them access to the atonement as soon as they desire to repent and come unto Christ and be baptized. This is the God I believe in. I reject the false God who is changeable and partial and judges based on random rules for one set of His children while judging others on another standard. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Whenever God has been reduced to rules and minutia it is referred to in scripture as the “lesser law”. (see D&C 84) It is a reduction of what could have been. It becomes a way for those who accept it to be condemned for their aaronic behavior. It denies the Holy Ghost, and it prevents the fulness and Zion. When you change the ordinance to fit your religious anxiety and fear of choosing for yourself, you loose what God offers. This religiously enshrined false and changed ordinance is what scripture calls abomination. It becomes difficult to reverse because those who practice it are very religiously devout and become angry when it is suggested that they are abominable and following false Gods. I suppose its reasonable enough in their minds to cast out those like Abinadi, Nephi, Lehi, Samuel, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph and even the very Son of God as wildmen or unfit neighbors when they feel so religiously justified. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Can God's people live under rules and creeds which establish accepted orthodoxy? Is having rules and creeds what is meant by "one heart and one mind" which is a reality of those who reside in Zion? Or is one mind and one heart a function of knowing God? Is it doing as Joseph suggests above that we receive the mind of God for ourselves by what we sacrifice, what we know and what we do to defy evil, receiving covenants by what we do? </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">God is a Principle. We must be in agreement or accord with Him and His Principles to be united with them. These Principles are who He is and who we must be or not be saved. These Principles are the Powers of Heaven or the Fathers we must unite ourselves with in order to be one with Them. The unity we seek between each other comes as a result of knowing and possessing Them. Love is Truth. Love is reality of who God is. God is real because He is reality or He is what is, because He caused what is to be. If we base ourselves on Him who is and was and will be, we will continue on because we are like Him. If we are not like Him then we will continue on in the deaths, worlds without end. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Why do we not repent of our ignorance when truth is taught plainly revealing our folly? Especially when it is given us in love and charity? God is not a creed or a rule. Christ consistently broke rules and creeds to obey His Father because He was principle based, or in other words He obeyed the higher law of principles which allowed Him to remain in obedience to the Father while not necessarily staying true to rules and creeds.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">"People are quickly and easily drawn away from repentance into some other vain and foolish track." (Denver Snuffer, Preserving the Restoration, p. )</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Repentance and baptism is the Way. It is the only mechanism given by heaven to grant a greater abundance of the Holy Spirit (Mosiah 18:10) and to establish equity and equality of all people.(see Moroni 6:1 and 7) It is the ONE doctrine of Christ and apparently we just don't have the patience to abide in that doctrine long enough to be cleaned up and filled with enough light to be one with God and thereby one with all who also are one with God. And our children languish and fade in the Spirit because the earth is defiled with an altered ordinance which curses the whole earth and makes it desolate or without the Holy Spirit, and in so doing are living under a broken covenant no longer everlasting to salvation but only to separation from that Spirit which is designed to fill us with light and truth, but we will not. Therefore will the earth be burned and few men left. (Isaiah 24:5-6)</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;">O let us repent while it is day! Let those who are the most tender among us be reconciled to Christ and filled with His Holy Spirit as they gain understanding! Let those who have knowledge come into the house of the Lord and be united back with their Christ! Let those who do not know of Christ and His mercy be taught the good news of the gospel, and then having knowledge repent and be baptized! Let those who are willing to come unto Christ as He has commanded then be filled with the Spirit of God, pressed down shaken together and overflowing with light and truth! That our young men and our young women may prophecy in the name of the Lord and no one will need say "know ye the Lord" for all will know Him and be like Him for they will all be filled with the same Spirit all in all! (Joel 2) May those who come fall upon the necks of all those who will remain as Followers of the Way in steadfastness and humility! For God is coming! And He will burn up those who cannot abide who He is, and with that same fire will quicken or make fast those who see Him as He is because they are like Him and have a fellowship with Them. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "helveticaneue";"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><br /></span></span>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-10928977749047813832017-10-16T14:05:00.000-07:002017-10-16T14:05:05.579-07:00The Gall of Bitterness<span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 12px;">“For he [John the Baptist] was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.</span><br />
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Here we find an example in scripture of a mortal man being “baptized while he was yet in his childhood”. If we say little children means "under the age of eight", it is fair to also say that "in his childhood" also means under age eight as well. John the Baptist lived at the time of Jesus during His mortal ministry. John was Christ’s cousin. Interestingly, the book of Moroni chapter eight, which is an epistle from Mormon to his son Moroni, informs us of a possible contradiction.</div>
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"Behold I say unto you, that<b><u> he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.</u></b> For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.</div>
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If we define “little children” as under the age of eight years old, then these two scriptures are not compatible. If Mormon meant to say, “he that supposeth that children under the age of eight need baptism is in the gall of bitterness”, then what we have is someone baptizing John, before the allowed age of eight in direct violation of the edict of Mormon. If we presume that the person performing the baptism is the angel mentioned in the above verses, then we are forced to conclude that an angel of God is in the “gall of bitterness, the bonds of iniquity, for he hath neither faith, hope nor charity”, and that this angel, or whomever baptized John before his eighth birthday, “must go down to hell” just for thinking about doing this, let alone actually doing it.</div>
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If on the other hand, if “little children” means what King Benjamin meant, that little children are infants, (see prior post: Accountability) and those without knowledge and understanding of their awful and fallen situation and of the need for a Savior, then what we have is a person in John the Baptist who came to this earth already possessing great enough knowledge for the angel of God to baptize him without an age requirement. We are being shown what accountability really means. Accountability is not age related at all, it is based on the knowledge of the individual. Mormon continues:</div>
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"Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear. And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.</div>
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For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.</div>
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Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.” (Moroni 8:14-17)</div>
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Don't pervert the ways of the Lord. Don’t do that! Don’t fear man. Mormon didn’t fear man because he was filled with perfect love or in other words he was filled with charity. He knew what he was talking about. All children are alike to Mormon. Children are “all alike and partakers of salvation”. How charitable is it for one child being 7 years, 11 months, 30 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds old to be saved by Christ, and then a few seconds later be subject to the fall and be damned to hell? All this while they slumber in bed! Is this charitable? Is this equitable? Is this viewing all children alike? Or is this condemning some to hell and some not based on the arbitrary tick of the clock? Do you “suppose that God saves one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism”?</div>
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This is a perversion of the ways of the Lord! I speak with boldness for I fear not what man can do! All children are alike to me, and those who are without the law or in other words, those who do not know or understand, are “all alike and partakers of salvation.”</div>
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For I know that God is not partial, neither is He changeable! If God would allow for John the Baptist to be baptized based on the knowledge he possessed, which allowed him to repent-he being under the law by his knowledge, then could an unchanging God prohibit another child of any age the same blessing if they possessed understanding of their need for a Savior? If God did forbid it, would He thereby be changeable? If changeable, would He cease to be God and lose His own salvation?</div>
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It is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God! The first fruit of repentance is baptism. (Moroni 8: 25) Without baptism then, there is no fruit of repentance. Repentance is null and void, and pure vanity and iniquity if it is not followed by baptism. Repentance without baptism is in a word, fruitless. Multiply and be fruitful, Adam was told, or in other words, humble yourself down into the depths of humility and repent and be baptized in my Name—be fruitful! </div>
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Does a child under 8 years old understand they have done wrong? Is wrongdoing sin? If we teach a child of sin and error, and then teach them to repent, but then deny them baptism because they are not 8, what have we done? Have we not damned them? For now they have knowledge because we taught them they have offended God; we taught them to repent; and then we deny them the fruit! We literally place them under the law by giving them understanding, and then deny them Gods pure mercies! We enshrine our own lack of understanding as a false tradition upon our children, teaching them to set at naught the mercies God offers through the fruit of repentance, even baptism. Mormon says don’t do this! Mormon views all children alike! </div>
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We hardly understand this most correct of books! We see ourselves as Nephi and really we are Laman and Lemuel, never getting the answers because we won’t ask God to reveal to us what lies just beyond our perception in the the scriptures that lay before us. We revel in our darkness and call it light. We refuse to see that it is US that is denying the pure mercies of God and US that is denying the Holy Ghost to the children we say we love. Mormon wants you to be clear on why he can say he truly loves children: its because he is equitable and fair to them and does not differentiate based on anything other than knowledge; He does not discriminate child from child based on age, and this he calls, “everlasting love”. </div>
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Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner! Those who continue after being brought into the light shall perish except they repent. I speak with boldness, having authority from God! I fear not what man can do for I am filled with charity and everlasting and perfect love, which casteth out all fear, and which makes all children alike unto me, wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love, and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.</div>
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He that supposes that children need baptism based on any criteria other than knowledge and understanding, is in the gall of bitterness, the bonds of iniquity and has neither faith, hope nor charity. For who having understanding has God not commanded to repent?</div>
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Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-39097206526716876392017-10-15T18:03:00.001-07:002017-10-15T18:03:18.153-07:00Accountability <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 12px;">
Before i begin, I would like to acknowledge the sensitive nature of this topic and the emotions that run high when its being discussed. I am humbly asking for you to open your mind and heart and read the whole thing before you make a decision to discount what i write. I would also like to state that I believe this is extremely important to the founding of zion or i wouldn’t bring it up at all. </div>
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In D&C 29: 45-50 LE. it states:</div>
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For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. But behold, I say unto you, that <u>little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world </u>through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they <b><u>begin</u></b> to become accountable before me; For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, that great things may be required at the hand of their fathers. And, again, I say unto you, that <b><u>whoso having knowledge, have I not commanded to repent?</u></b> And he that <b><u>hath no understanding</u></b>, it remaineth in me to do according as it is written. And now I declare no more unto you at this time. Amen.</div>
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This is Christ speaking and He is telling us that, “little children”, are:</div>
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UNTIL: they<i> begin </i>to become accountable</div>
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When is that? Why does the Lord use the word “begin” to become accountable? Are we accountable for the knowledge we don’t have yet? Is accountability a process? Is accountability a process of becoming like the Gods? Of being precisely what They are?</div>
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Continuing: “And, again,” [same topic, stressing the point or accountability—again] “I say unto you, that <b><u>whoso having knowledge, have I not commanded to repent?”</u></b> [Is there anyone who has knowledge, that God hasn’t commanded to repent? Anyone?] </div>
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…continuing, “And he that <b><u>hath no understanding</u></b>, it remaineth in me to do according as it is written.” Here, the Lord tells us who He means when He says “little children” in the lines just prior to these we read. Little children are “he that hath no understanding”. With those who have “no understanding”, God will do with according as is written just prior which is: they are “redeemed from the foundation of the world, they cannot sin, satan has no power to tempt them”. This is true because of their lack of knowledge and understanding! They are redeemed from the fall to be sent down to another world that God already has prepared for those who are not like Him yet. (Moses 1:38)</div>
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This is why Joseph Smith said, “a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge” and “knowledge saves a man”. Joseph understood what he was talking about! Salvation wasn’t an arbitrary age. It was and is and always will be knowledge that saves! So God instituted baptism as a mechanism to pour out His Spirit more abundantly upon us. (see Mosiah 18:10) In other words, baptism is designed to pour power back into dormant or apostate priesthood, and to give the mind of God to mankind in greater measure. Baptism gives more abundance of the Holy Spirit, which in turn gives knowledge; Godly knowledge! </div>
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So as a principle, an age requirement for baptism is blocking God from giving His mind or the Holy Spirit to those who happen to be under that age. Despite that a child under 8 may know that they are fallen and in need of a Savior and desire to repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit with greater abundance, such a discriminatory rule prohibits them from progressing in the knowledge God wants to pour out to them. It fights Gods purposes to restrict children in this way. It contradicts the words quoted above by the Lord. And as we shall see as we continue, it is opposite of how King Benjamin taught his people.</div>
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So why and when did this age requirement occur? Shouldn’t we honor Josephs words in JST Exodus and D&C 68?</div>
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Good question! In the 10 Lecture series, now Preserving the Restoration, Denver makes it clear that the Campbellite assimilation into the movement Joseph started was like a giant lump in a snake, a giant “aneurysm”! These Campbellites, “saw the faith through restorationist eyes.” This “overthrow of Joseph’s incipient faith” was led by Sidney Rigdon. So we know that Joseph was easily influenced by Rigdon and other Campbellites. We see this all through the D&C where God is answering the questions Joseph asks at the behest of these well meaning folks, while intertwining in, what it is He, God, wanted to establish. We are removing D&C 20 and engaging in this project for that exact reason! </div>
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So what was one of the questions on the minds of the various Restorationist movements in the years leading up to Gods hand beginning again with Joseph? Because we know Joseph was able to be influenced, and we know the Campbellites and Rigdon were the primary influencers that got Gods restoration off track. What was one of their concerns? A debate that was raging then and still is a question between Catholics and many protestants today, is the “age of accountability” debate. It was a time of debate regarding original sin and when one needs baptism. “What is the age of accountability?”, is a question asked then and still today! So Jospeh was pushed to get an answer. Rigdon shows up to translate the Bible with a young Joseph. It is possible and very likely that Rigdon and the Campbelittes asked for a “king” so to speak, by influencing Joseph to ask for or to mistakenly seek, a hard and fast age requirement for baptism, and we see that influence in that one verse in Exodus, and the other in D&C 68. Sidney Rigdon shows up to assist Joseph in the translating, and we find the same issues being debated in the Restorationsist movement then underway, show up in the translating and later the D&C.</div>
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If you look at the verse quoted above in section 29, the contradiction between where the Lord says, “whoso having knowledge, have I not commanded to repent?”, and then equates understanding and knowledge to accountability, contrasted with an arbitrary age requirement where from one second to the next one suddenly becomes accountable as one second earlier they weren’t accountable, and based on no action or work or knowledge other than the ticking of the clock they suddenly become so. This seeming contradiction fits this pattern that exists in the D&C between what a restorationist campbellite audience wanted, contrasted with what Gods intention was and is. We see the two conflicting themes intertwined in scripture as God gives the saints what they wanted, and also what He wants simultaneously. We are left to find the light by the light within us. </div>
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You cannot conflate Mormon condemning baptism of “little children” with section 68 or Exodus. Both of the latter occurred <i>after</i> Mormon wrote Moroni 8. What we can do is look at what Mormon understood by the words “little children” by looking at the material that he just abridged and rewrote on metal plates. He had just finished that work when he wrote Moroni 8, and therefore his understanding would have come from the words of the prophets whom he just abridged. </div>
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“And <u>even if it were possible that little children could sin</u> they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.”</div>
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So we are talking about “little children” and the idea that Christ atoned for their sins. So what does King Benjamin mean by “little children”? Continuing, next verse…</div>
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“And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the <b><u>INFANT</u></b> perisheth not that dieth in his <b><u>INFANCY</u></b>; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.</div>
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So we have a message about children and accountability given by King Benjamin. He (just like Christ did in Section 29) first establishes that “little children” are saved from the fall by Christ. He then expounds and tells us exactly who he means by “little children”. It is infants! Which puts this right back into Josephs own time and the very debates of his day regarding original sin or guilt that was raging as religious freedom was being explored following the Protestant Reformation. Joseph tells us that it was a “tumult of opinion” and that voices were crying "lo here and lo there”. How was a boy as young as he was to know the truth? Well, he lacked knowledge. He lacked Wisdom. So he asked and got an answer. </div>
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Mormon knew this definition and understanding that King Benjamin gave in this sermon. He did not have Josephs material brought on by apostate christians in the 1800’s before him. It is therefore more reasonable to believe that Mormon was referencing infants when he speaks of “little children”, than that he was referencing all people under the age of 8. It also solves the contradictions between everything Jospeh taught the rest of his life and those two verses that condemn us still today. There is another message God wants us to see in the material Joseph gave us. The term blindness used in scripture is important because it tells us we can’t see what we can’t see. Unbelief being that we believe something that is incorrect, to be the truth, then it stands to reason we are going to be surprised when the thing that we were blind to that was in the dark is revealed to our understanding. If it wasn’t surprising we would have already known it. If we weren’t blinded to the truth, we would have already seen. </div>
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So why is this important to the establishment of zion?</div>
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In Joel we read:</div>
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28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; [what is the mechanism God uses to “pour out His Spirit”?] and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions</div>
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32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.”</div>
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If God is to pour out His Spirit upon our young men and women, they need a greater abundance of the Holy Spirit. By the time a child turns 8 years old they are already so engrained in the ways of the world, and corrupted with TV, internet, and public schooling, that it takes years maybe decades for God to pour out His Spirit abundantly enough to counteract the violence, sex and vulgarity that washes over them on a constant basis. Remember, accountability is a process that doesn’t end until one knows all things. If we waited until we “knew enough” before we got baptized, we would miss the very mechanism God intends to fix that very deficiency in us.</div>
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Heres how Alma puts it.</div>
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“what have you against being <b>baptized</b> in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, <b><u>that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly</u></b>upon you?”</div>
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If you lack the Spirit in any degree, Alma at least will tell you the way to get <i>more</i>! Go repent and be baptized!</div>
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In Mosiah 2, King Benjamin addresses the need for children to be involved in the gospel according to their knowledge: </div>
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"For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God <b>CONTRARY TO HIS OWN KNOWLEDGE</b>. (Wow! Accountability defined!) I say unto you, that there are not any among you,<u> except it be your little children that have not been taught </u>concerning these things, but what knoweth that ye are eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are; and also have been taught concerning the records which contain the prophecies which have been spoken by the holy prophets, even down to the time our father, Lehi, left Jerusalem…O, all ye old men, and also ye young men, and you LITTLE CHILDREN WHO CAN UNDERSTAND MY WORDS, for I have spoken plainly unto you that ye might understand, I pray that ye should AWAKE TO A REMEMBRANCE of the AWFUL SITUATION of those that have fallen into transgression.”</div>
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Is it really true that a child younger than 8 years old cannot understand the gospel of Jesus Christ? Why does Christ say, “suffer the little children to come unto me” if He doesn’t mean it? Are children under the age of 8 taught the gospel? If so, and they awaken to their awful situation as King Benjamin says, who would deny salvation and redemption to such a soul by denying them the blessing of baptism and its attendant outpouring of the Holy Spirit because of an arbitrary rule that is found only in scripture after the Campbellite distortion of Gods work?</div>
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The idea that at a single moment in time, independent of knowledge and understanding, one second a soul is innocent and does not need baptism, and at the striking of midnight suddenly becomes accountable is so contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ that its laughable and seems absurd when seen in its true light. In the future it will be seen as unthinkable to deny an entire segment of the worlds population the salvific blessings of baptism because of so arbitrary and ridiculous a rule established by churchmen who wanted to be the boss of other people and tell them what to do and when and who can come unto Christ.</div>
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I take the words of a servant, given us in our day as my guide and instruction in this matter.</div>
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"The only condition for baptism is to accept the Doctrine of Christ, set out by Christ in His own words. Christ commanded it be done, and has reiterated that it is to be done anew in our day. We will be disappointed at His coming if we fail to obey.” </div>
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‘Any who want to be baptized should be. If you have this power given by Christ and <i>anyone</i> comes to be baptized, do not refuse them.” (Italics on the word ‘anyone” are Denvers)</div>
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I add my witness before God that the age restriction was wittingly left out by Christ, Mormon, Moroni, Alma, Nephi, Joseph (in all his writings other than two spots), King Benjamin, and in our own day, Denver. It is not a principle of truth but a rule. I also witness that it is knowledge that saves, and knowledge and understanding that makes a soul accountable before God. Lets put aside the rules that bind us to darkness and deny the Holy Ghost, and establish principles that remove the condemnation and scales of darkness upon us and our children as promised us in D&C 84, if we will not only say but do what the Book of Mormon tells us: Repent and be baptized until you know all Things. The rising generation needs more Holy Spirit as soon as they understand and awaken to their awful situation as King Benjamin taught. </div>
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“Who having knowledge have I not commanded to repent?”</div>
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“the first fruit of repentance is baptism”</div>
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Will ye deny the Christ and the Holy Spirit to your children any longer?</div>
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Perhaps it is at long last time we change JST Exodus and D&C 68 to reflect correct principles and lay aside this condemnation under which we suffocate and deny the Holy Spirit to the souls who need it most if we are to have Zion.</div>
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Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-3932029196073111712017-09-28T12:01:00.000-07:002017-09-28T12:01:06.957-07:00Approaching the Holy Order of Zion<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 12px;">
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In order that a holy people may be established upon the earth, that the covenants to the Fathers may be fulfilled, of which have been prophesied, in which Gods people may return and bring again Zion, it is necessary according to the pattern of heaven that a people of God understand and know correct principles and laws upon which a holy people can be established in righteousness and truth according to the Word of God. These sayings are given that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness. For if you keep my commandments, by following your Lord and Savior down into the waters until you are clean without spot, even until you are made Holy, you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me even as I am glorified in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, if you do this, you shall receive grace for grace until you are able to bear all things, whether under heaven or the earth, or above them, for all things shall be yours and you will be mine, and I Am the Fathers, for He has given me all that He hath. And He has given me all things in the exact same way I give it to any who will. For this is the law of Heaven, and of Zion, that City of Holiness given as a light to all living, but they perceive it not. </div>
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Hear Me my little flock, let your hearts be comforted; for all Things shall work together for good-- to them that walk uprightly in Wisdoms paths, even to the sanctification of them by the blood of the Lamb unto the renewing of their bodies. For I will raise up unto myself a pure and holy people, that will serve me in righteousness; And all that call upon the name of the Lord, and keep his commandments, shall be saved. For, for this purpose is the revelation given of the prophet who should come and baptize the Lamb of God in the waters of the Jordan river. </div>
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Hear you the words of Wisdom: How is it that the Lamb of God, He being Holy, or in other words, He is a Holy Being, without beginning of days or end of years, how is it that this Christ-being Holy has need of baptism? For He is from everlasting to everlasting! But He submitted to the will of the Father to show His people the way. Even to show any who would have Him to be their God, that inasmuch as any person or peoples are in need of repentance, or in other words, inasmuch as you are not holy, or not a Holy Being, then the way given to become so, is to repent and be baptized and receive more Holy Ghost, and to continue in this way until you receive the entirety of the mind of God, knowing all things from the first to the End.</div>
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And I heard the voice of the Father say to me: This is My Beloved Son, His Words are True and Faithful, hear you His Word! And the Son truly said, Who having knowledge have I not commanded to repent and follow Me down into the waters that I may make them Holy even as I Am? Who can hear it? Who will abide the day? For I will come, and I come with Vengeance and Fury! And they that come with me shall not stop to loose their shoes latchet, nor will they rest until all My words have been fulfilled. For I will flood the earth before that dreadful day of the Lord comes, and I will flood the earth with Truth! Who can hear it? I say to you, that you may understand clearly, that only those who are Mine, who have partaken of the fountain of all Righteousness freely, continually running into this fountain or the waters of baptism, without measure and without restraint, even those who have become without spot therein, shall remain standing at that day. These are they who shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life freely. For as they freely went down into the water, even so shall they rise up and freely or continuously partake of the fruit of the tree of life. For this is the day of salvation and it is offered to all on the same basis. For in the first place, all were given the same opportunity. And I give liberally unto all those who, finding they lack Wisdom, ask God for more light and truth. And the way to ask for and then receive Wisdom, is to repent and follow your Lord and Savior down into the waters! For in the waters, the fountain of all living, I will pour out My mind, or the Holy Spirit, for even as I poured out My life, even so will I pour My mind out to all those who come unto Me in the depths of Humility, and therein find the Mother of all Living.</div>
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This is My doctrine! Not because I said it, although that is true enough, but because this is how I fix a soul into becoming My child! In this process or labor I Engraven and bestow My Name in and to all who will follow Me down continually, for Truly therein I Am engraved in their inward parts, for I Am that I Am. And surely I will cause it to be if My people will again worship Me in the way I have ordained. For in the beginning the Father wrote My Name upon the face of the deep or upon the waters, and if you would take upon you My Name and countenance that you may be even as I Am, you must lay down all that you are in the waters, and upon arising therefrom, My Name which is on the face of the waters, shall be engraved upon your countenance, even My image shall be written upon you. This is My word work and glory! For as one earth passes away, even so at My word, do I bring another earth into being, and this is the covenant I made with your fathers, that I would do this until I could say, and every tongue confess it is so, that God is Merciful! Glory be to the Father! And Glory Light and Life shall be crowned upon those who wait patiently for the Lord to take them by the hand and lead them from grace to grace, light to light, illuminating the light of understanding within them until that same mind, that same light that resides within Me, surely quickens and enlightens them, that they are outside the power of sin, or without sin.</div>
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This is My doctrine. This is the Way I have given. This is the strait and narrow way. This is how to walk uprightly on the water even as I walked on it in days of old. For the waters truly are Wisdoms paths, and they who walk penitently therein shall be filled with wisdom, and the sons of God shall return in that day when there shall be a people who will do this work, and those who obey her and have her to be their God shall have length of days upon the earth. And they who walk uprightly in this strait and narrow way, shall be filled with the mind of God! For it has ever been so, even from before the foundations of the earth. It is so now, for My word shall be fulfilled, and it will ever be so even until the end. In one eternal round, offering to lift all men even as I was lifted up upon the cross, if they would but begin in faith, which leads to repentance, the firstfruits of which is baptism by water, which brings a greater measure of things of light, or the Holy Spirit, which informs them of things that they did not know before about God, which corrects their faith or understanding, leading to a more correct view of Gods nature characteristics and attributes, which brings humility and leads again to repentance, which when followed by baptism, leads again to a greater and greater abundance of Light and Truth. This is the cycle of resurrection and rebirth, being lifted higher and higher in the cavity of the Rock. The flood, even the flood of Truth is come upon the earth and the darkness perceives it not, yet it shines for all those who will be Mine. Come unto me all you who thirst! Come, lay down your earthy things in the waters, and arise up bearing things of Enoch’s city! Go to and find the lost sheep who empower and enlighten all the children of the Most High God! For they are not lost to me but are mine! Come and if you will, you may partake of the waters of life continuously until the perfect day! Even a day when I at last can come and take up my abode with the sheep who are my flock in a city of Holiness on the earth, because there are at last a people who are in fact Holy, even as I Am. A city that is without spot and without sin! A city filled with those who walk in Wisdoms paths! For they are Holy because they have done as I have done, becoming grace for grace even as I Am.</div>
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Wherefore, these words are given you, even My doctrine is given you that you may <u>prepare and organize yourselves by this bond or everlasting covenant that cannot be broken</u>. That you may abide the fire that comes. Fear not little flock, for I Am with you until the End if you will but receive my word, and do my work, and walk in Wisdoms paths until I come. For I will come quickly to My Temple, which Temple ye are, to both the quick and the dead, restoring that which is good to good, and that which is evil to evil. For I Am God above all things and so it is, Even so. Amen. </div>
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(Received by revelation from God on July 22, 2017 to Jonny Durfee)</div>
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Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-90719476734880951362016-09-30T23:21:00.002-07:002016-09-30T23:36:20.196-07:00Confounded Language<div style="line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;">"An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord </span><u style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;"><b>confounded</b> the language</u><span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;"> of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven--Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their </span><b style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;">fathers</b><span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;">; and that they may know the </span><b style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;">covenants</b><span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 16px;"> of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever" (Title page, Book of Mormon)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">What if the confounded language of the Jaradites at the time of the great tower has never been </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">un-confounded or corrected? What if “language being confounded” has nothing to do with languages being split into chinese, english, spanish and all the many various languages across the globe? What if instead, confounded language is an integral part of the Lords plan? What if confounded language is actually part of last days prophecy and the return of the Lord in Glory? What if confounded language is part of our problem or “awful situation” (Ether 8:24) which we find ourselves in, and from which we must awaken? What if we—you and I—have a confounded language still? How would we know? How would we fix it? What are the promises God makes regarding this dilemma and why does He confound the language of the wicked?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">What if zion cannot return unless we have our language un-confouded and receive the “learning or language of our Fathers” (1 Nephi 1-2:1; 2 Nephi 4:15; 1 Nephi 3:19, 21;2 Nephi 31:3-5; Mormon 9:34), even the "Fathers"language and </span><span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><i>understanding?</i></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What does the phrase, “after the manner of the learning of our Fathers” have to do with the phrase “after the order of”? Are they related? How? Does this relate to the promises made to the Fathers spoken of by the Angel who came to Joseph Smith in 1823? If it does, how seriously ought we take the charge to awaken to our awful situation? </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">If our language is confounded (and it is) and we as a people are completely ignorant of that fact, how can we even begin to repent of this defect? How awful a situation is it to be ignorant of how you displease God and therefore remain unable to repent? What an awful situation indeed! </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“The problem we must overcome to obtain salvation is our profound ignorance. And what the gospel offers defies ignorance, subdues it, challenges it, destroys it, and leaves it in the dark. So lets try and search into, and obtain some illumination.” (DS, Boise, September 10, 2013)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">How does the gospel do this? Does the gospel you follow do this for you? Does the gospel you follow give you illumination into the things of God? If the gospel as you understand it does not:</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">defy ignorance</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">subdue ignorance</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">challenge ignorance</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">destroy ignorance </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">leave ignorance in the dark</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">then do you have this same gospel being referred to by all the prophets? If you do not, then how awful is your situation!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">So lets try and search into, and obtain some illumination on this gospel that brings these wonderful and needful gifts and perhaps we will find therein, that God will un-confound our language and illuminate our understandings in fulfillment of prophecy.</span></div>
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Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-28543576765378420432015-12-13T18:25:00.001-08:002015-12-14T11:46:56.290-08:00Shedding Blood<div>
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Here is Enoch regarding the shedding of the blood of the Lamb being necessary, and why the blood of the Lamb was necessary and a thing to be rejoiced!: </div>
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44 And as Enoch saw this, he had bitterness of soul, and wept over his brethren, and said unto the heavens: I will refuse to be comforted; but the Lord said unto Enoch: Lift up your heart, and be glad; and look.</div>
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Enoch refuses to be comforted. He knows of his own awful state before God and the awful state of all humanity, and there is no thing to comfort him!</div>
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45 And it came to pass that Enoch looked; and from Noah, he beheld all the families of the earth; and he cried unto the Lord, saying: When shall the day of the Lord come? When shall the blood of the Righteous be shed, that all they that mourn may be sanctified and have eternal life?</div>
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Enoch wanted to see blood shed! Think of that! He wanted and knew this was the only way. Walking away was not and never is a possible solution to the quandary that Christ found Himself in. It required bloodshed. BLOOD SHED! Suffering, bleeding, dying as an innocent. This was the requirement. Enoch could not be comforted with anything short of bloodshed, with the innocent being slain and his blood shed!</div>
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46 And the Lord said: It shall be in the meridian of time, in the days of wickedness and vengeance.</div>
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Christ, the one who doesn't like contention, wants obedience, and non-violence, chooses to come in the days of "wickedness and vengeance". Which is interesting because when he comes again he is coming with "vengeance and fury". Who is this God? What is this "love" that He has? Why a love which includes vengeance and fury? How is this God so full of love that he comes in such a horrible time? </div>
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47 And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me.</div>
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Blood is shed. The sacrifice was made. No withdrawal or self denial. Christ knew that the only way to redeem was for His blood to be shed, his innocent blood shed, by and at the hands of the wicked. I'm sure He saw their "goodness." I'm sure he would rather not have condemned the Jews and the Romans. Yet He knew blood, contention, and reviling were required. He knew he could not resign! I'm sure there were voices that called for Him to show "compassion" on the wicked. And to just "walk away". I join Enoch in my soul rejoicing that the Righteous is lifted up! The Lamb is slain! And that from the foundation of the world! We hardly know what this means. I praise God that there are some who refuse to resign! Including our Lord and Savior. </div>
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My bitterness of soul is swallowed up in the reality that Christ in fact was lifted up on the cross, and slain, and His blood shed. I thank God that He was willing to submit. Christ is the prototype of the saved man. If we would be saved, perhaps we would do as He did?? </div>
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Be of of good courage, be of good cheer! For the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world, and his blood shed for life to come and lift and restore all of creation. Be of good cheer! God has again sent messengers to proclaim His gospel! Be of good courage, for God has sent a servant who has shown the way, even by following the example of the Savior. </div>
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Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-27951200303151848742015-12-11T09:25:00.001-08:002015-12-11T09:25:35.023-08:00Jesus Resigns!!!<div>JESUS RESIGNS!</div><div><br></div><div>The following is an excerpt of an article taken from a made up newspaper story near the time when Jesus almost died at the hands of allegedly pious, self-righteous and wicked religionists who claimed to hold the keys of Gods authority in a direct line from Moses down to Caiaphas. The blogger and this blog take no responsibility for the excerpts nor the content of the article. Any opinions expressed are those of the article's authors. </div><div><br></div><div> JESUS OF NAZARETH RESIGNS FROM JEWERY!</div><div> Headline News, Jerusalem April 1, 34 A.D. </div><div><br></div><div>Associated Scribes™ Jerusalem--On Monday, just days before crucifixion rumors were swirling around the man known as Jesus of Nazareth, he simply resigned from the Jewish church, citing doctrinal differences and divine decree. "I just can't take it anymore", Jesus is quoted as saying. "They were just so mean! My dad is really really put out about this--and I'm not talking about Joseph!", as he stomped off with his arms folded, and tears welling up in his eyes. "It's not fair!"</div><div><br></div><div>Church officials made no official comment but a spokesman for the Sanhedrin told the Associated Scribes™ that the church was not in the business of forcing members to stay or leave. "We wish young Jesus all the best, but his name has been taken off the rolls of the church and he has lost his eternal salvation as a result. He can't hurt us now--he resigned."</div><div><br></div><div>Jesus was rumored to be in the middle of a coup to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and set up the Kingdom of "God" in its place. But the church has never acknowledged Jesus or his authority. The official stance has always been that he nor his homeless cousin have any authority to act in the name of God. As far as the church is concerned this puts an end to the matter. "One lost his head, the other lost his mind", quipped one anonymous Elder. </div><div><br></div><div>Angry followers of John resorted to violence and tipped over some of the royal guards' chariots as a show of protest. They are also reportedly behind several arson fires started on the homes of some of the twelve men thought to be in Jesus' inner circle. "John wrested the keys, and this is what Jesus does with them? I hope the angels give him hell. The earth may just be totally wasted at this point", was the retort of one follower of John. </div><div><br></div><div>"Jesus was not the son of God. He is not Lord. He is not the long awaited for Messiah. Under Mosaic law, Jesus in effect divorced himself from the church. He is the guilty party and will be responsible for the consequences which ensue after his resignation," Caiaphas was heard saying when questioned if the church was responsible for pushing out Jesus. </div><div><br></div><div>Top officials in the church denied they were involved in bribing Roman officials to put the man on trial, with the potential for a crucifixion verdict. "Many claimed he was the King of the Jews. He even made the claim himself I'm told. There was a lot of excitement and talk of miracles and Gods hand manifest in this young man. Now he's voluntarily left the church. Just another itinerant preacher who couldn't deliver. He clearly had a "Messiah complex". We are never happy to see anyone resign and go to hell, but we are glad this is over without any blood spilt. There was no blood spilt! The last thing we wanted was violence. Now the church and the Roman state can go about the business of healing and being united in prospering Zion."</div><div><br></div><div>Meanwhile Jesus was seen being escorted home (after delivering his letter of resignation to Caiaphas) by a legion of "angels". Said one bystander dressed in a bathrobe and a reed in his hand who preferred to be unnamed "yeah, there were like a lot of angels holding him up and I think like the church is gonna pay for this one! God is not going to take this well. But I didn't know him really, I mean not at all, so don't look at me."</div><div><br></div><div>Jesus had created quite a following in his young life. Despite his youth he had at his command at least twelve grown men who believed he was the son of God. He also seemed to have some say in his cousin Johns work, down at the Jordon river. Now he's not even a member of the church. Included in the resignation letter, Jesus reportedly also renounced his birthright and lineage in the Jewish nation. Not only is he not a member the church any longer, he has moved on to "save" another nation other than Israel, according to his closest followers. "It's just too violent and dangerous a place for Jesus to minister his message of peace and non confrontation. He didn't want to condemn Caiaphas and the entire Roman and Jewish nations, so he walked away. Contention is bad--and he refused to engage in any negativity at all. So hopefully he can save the world through non-violent peaceful negotiation."</div><div><br></div><div>The man some thought was "the son of God" made news recently when he allegedly fed several hundred people with some muffin tops and a few crab cakes. Jesus frequently broke the rules of sabbath, bathing nude in the pools of Bethesda, and actually healing people for reals without permission from the Sanhedrin, as well as imbibing all together too much wine. (Don't worry anti-winers, it's most likely just grape juice). He was a "rule breaker" and quite unruly. "Let the Romans or the damn Gentiles have him", are the sentiments of many.</div><div><br></div><div> Now some say he may be on the fast track to a high level position in the Roman political scene. Powerful Roman leaders would love to have Jesus as a political ally, and now that he is not a Jew, the hope is to use his popularity to quell any ideas of rebellion in Judea. Plus the ladies really like him and he reportedly serves the best homemade wine (ahem- grape juice), at the end of his parties, which are legendary.</div><div><br></div><div>What will become of this fledgling movement now that the resignation is official? No one knows for sure, but one thing is for sure, even his former followers believe he is not the Messiah. "This isn't the sacrificial Lamb. The necessary sacrifice cannot be made by walking away and resigning. It took millennia to set all the pieces in place--to fulfill all scripture and to enact this "strange act" by God, and Jesus just threw it all away by resigning, and now there is no atonement, Israel is not redeemed, and Mankind is not redeemed from the fall. Why didn't he just let them revile, persecute and kill him as was prophesied?" </div><div><br></div><div>I guess we'll never know. He could have been the one to redeem Israel, but he's still Jesus right? That's gotta count for something...he told inner circle members that "the spirit" told him to resign so I'm sure it's fine. It's like "as if" he made the same sacrifice just without the killing and reviling and the condemnation of the Jews, and without all that "wresting of keys" business. It was the kind thing to do. And we all know death and hell are overcome by acquiescing and negotiation, and stealing off into the night without a peep, so it'll be fine. Don't be judgemental, we all have to go our own way, and this was Jesus' way--that God told him to follow so, "Do this, or do that, it mattereth not..."</div><div><br></div><div>Somehow God will save us all anyway--right???</div><div><br></div><div>In related news:</div><div><br></div><div>A woman who claims to have in her possession the famous previously uncut locks of Jesus, is suing Him. "He told me he was the son of God. I believed him and thought surely I could get some good money at the local bazaar. But now that he's resigned, this hair isn't worth anything. He at least owes me for the lunch I bought him and the cost of the oil I used."</div><div><br></div><div>Also: Since Jesus resigned, some scholars are now saying that lucifer may have a chance at getting back in the good graces of the Council in Heaven. See story below.</div><div><br></div><div>Also: Signs of the times got you down? Don't believe all you read in the scriptures? Just because all prophecy seemed about to be fulfilled in Jesus doesn't mean it really was going to happen. How to deal positively with a false or fallen Messiah. </div><div><br></div><div>Heads are rolling, locks are flowing, don't miss out on the latest trends in the "fashion of Christ" spring robe line. </div><div><br></div><div>Oops! I did it again! Did Abraham kill his only son for no reason? The "prototype" of the man just changed when Jesus resigned and walked away. Don't miss this exclusive insider on how to be the man! Hint: its a more loving approach without cruelty, reviling, or any suffering whatsoever except what you imagine up in your mind! You make up the story! (And put it all off on "the Spirit"!), testimonial: "this makes the sacrifice so much easier! Anyone can do it!"</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-65983877474850550972015-09-06T16:02:00.001-07:002015-09-06T16:02:47.586-07:00Silence Everything<div><div style="box-sizing: border-box; text-align: center;"><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Keep your clever lines</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Hold your easy rhymes</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Silence everything</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Silence always wins</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">It’s a perfect alibi</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">There’s no need to analyze</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">It will be all right</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Through the longest night</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Just silence everything</span></div><div style="text-align: start;"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><font><div style="text-align: start;">Learn from my mistake</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">Leave what others take</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">Speak when spoken to</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">And do what others do</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">Silence always wins</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">So silence everything</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">It will be all right</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">In the morning light</div></font><font><div style="text-align: start;">Just silence everything</div><div style="text-align: start;">--Aha, Foot of the Mountain</div></font></span></div></div><div><br></div><div>"It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?"</div><div>Joseph Smith—History 1:20</div><div><br></div><div>It seems at times that all hell rages against us. That the Powers of Darkness combine against us. And sometimes all that hell and the powers of darkness need of us is for us to remain silent. For silence is preferred to being a "disturber" and an "annoyer". Peace and love and unity at all costs right?</div><div><br></div><div>Silence...</div><div><br></div><div>That's all it takes. Just shut-up!!! Don't speak the Word of God! Just let others alone as they wander off down into the mists of darkness. God knows they are there and it's fine. That's where they are supposed to be. It's rude of you to speak the word of God with Power and Authority. People aren't used to that you see. It just disrupts their quiet unity and togetherness. If you don't preach truth and I don't preach truth we can all just remain in our delusions of grandeur and world of insane illusion about God, ourselves and our reality. We will somehow all be saved equally as we obey completely opposite laws, all the while in complete ignorance of Gods ways and Gods laws. God will save us all--so just be silent and don't judge and don't be contentious. </div><div><br></div><div>Silence...</div><div><br></div><div>Be quiet! Haven't you watched any movies? You've got to be quiet to keep the monster from getting you. Everyone knows that. That's one reason it really is easier to just keep quiet. </div><div><br></div><div>Silence...</div><div><br></div><div><div>"Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. <span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;</span></div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:</span></div><div>2 Peter 1:12-13,16,19</div><div><br></div><div>Silence...</div><div><br></div><div><div>"for [the people] do not repent, and Satan stirreth them up continually to anger one with another.</div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">For so exceedingly do they anger that it seemeth me that they have no fear of death; and they have lost their love, one towards another; and they thirst after blood and revenge continually.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God." --</span><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Moroni 9:3-6</span></div><div><br></div></div></div><div>Silence...</div><div><br></div><div>If we think to be silent, perhaps it would be wise to consider Joseph, Peter and Mormon. If the choice is between silence and being a witness of the testimony of Jesus, what do you choose? </div><div><br></div><div>Silence!!</div><div><br></div><div>All it takes to deny the Christ is to remain silent. </div><div><br></div><div>Silence!-- you are disturbing my sleep, and annoying my dreams! Can you just be silent, or at least use a softer voice lest I awaken and see my awful state? I am happy here in my miserable sleep! </div><div><br></div><div>For the light shineth in darkness and the darkness perceiveth it not. </div><div><br></div><div><div>"O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. Awake and arise from the dust! And now that my soul might have joy in you, and that my heart might leave this world with gladness because of you, that I might not be brought down with grief and sorrow to the grave, arise from the dust, my sons, and be men, and be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity;</div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">That ye may not be cursed with a sore cursing; and also, that ye may not incur the displeasure of a just God upon you, unto the destruction, yea, the eternal destruction of both soul and body.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Awake, my sons; put on the armor of righteousness. Shake off the chains with which ye are bound, and come forth out of obscurity, and arise from the dust.</span></div><div>2 Nephi 1:13-14, 21-23</div><div><br></div><div>Silence! I'm sleeping!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-40221325386602141712015-05-26T14:47:00.001-07:002015-05-26T14:47:47.895-07:00First Presidency Response<div><br></div><div>I got a text from Dan Barker the other day. (He used to be my Stake President) He asked if I could come in and meet with him on Thursday May 14th. I was unable to meet and asked him what it was about? He replied that the first presidency had a message for me that they wanted him to deliver to me. I asked if he could just tell me the message over the phone as I would not be in town that evening. I also asked for a written copy of the 1st Presidency's response.</div><div><br></div><div>He finally called me during the day on May 14th, and due to our conflicting schedules, he decided to tell me the news over the phone: </div><div>The First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Monson, President Eyring and President Uchtdorf, have upheld the decision of the High Council and denied my appeal of their excommunication of me for apostasy. He also told me that the First Presidency loved me and wanted me back in the church and that they would welcome me back when I was ready. </div><div><br></div><div>I replied that I was still unsure of why I wasn't a member anyway? Why would the church cast out someone who actually lived and did what that church's own scriptures said to do? </div><div><br></div><div>He said, Jon-- Jon, we've been through this...</div><div><br></div><div>I agreed and said I'm just amazed at how messed up it all is, and that there is no reason I shouldn't still be a member. </div><div><br></div><div>He invited me to meet with him whenever I wanted and invited me to try and return to the church. </div><div><br></div><div>I replied that I will never submit to the authority of an earthly institution again, and that as they had kicked me out without just cause, (me being innocent of apostasy from God and truth), I was free to pursue God as I pleased and God was free to work through me, independent of the church, according to His will. </div><div><br></div><div>(As an aside, The church had in effect served me a bill of divorcement, freeing me to pursue a new bridegroom, Christ. I would never have severed that marriage, having remained true and faithful while I belonged to that earthly church, I am free now to be one with Christ due to their actions, without committing what would otherwise be in effect "adultery", if I was the one who broke covenants I made in the temple by severing the relationship myself)</div><div><br></div><div>I asked for a written copy of the First Presidency response, and was told that the way it worked was that it all was conveyed through him as the stake president verbally to me. I said I did not agree to that and that I wanted written notice and that without it it didn't seem official or binding. (Under law, written notice is required to make something binding in a case of judgement or to "seal" it to be lasting. Without written notice the church is acting under color of law, but it lacks power to be binding, hence I am still a member of Christ's church, having never been given written notice to the contrary). He said there was nothing written he could give me. We said goodbye and that ended that. </div><div><br></div><div>"Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God!" (2 Nephi 27:14)</div><div><br></div><div>I am a witness. One of many God will establish. God has filled my mouth as seemeth Him good to assist in bringing forth the words of the book, and to thereby remove the condemnation by not only saying, but by also doing the words of the book as D&C 84 requires:</div><div><br></div><div>And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--</div><div><br></div><div>Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.</div><div><br></div><div>And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.</div><div><br></div><div>And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--</div><div><br></div><div>That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.</div><div>(D&C 84:54-58)</div><div><br></div><div>What does it mean to "bring forth fruit meet for their Fathers kingdom?"</div><div><br></div><div>And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins; (Moroni 8:25)</div><div><br></div><div>If this is correct, then repentance cannot and has not occurred until baptism is performed, because baptism is the first fruit of or in other words "fruit meet" for repentance. Baptism meets the requirement. It is the fruit whereby the penitent shows humility and thereby meets or fulfills the law (commandment) upon which the blessing of remission of sins is obtained. Repentance and baptism are twins that work in tandem. Separated, they lie fallow in the ground unable to produce fruit, no matter the good intentions of the individual. Repentance followed by Baptism with Power is the law ordained before the foundation of the world upon which remission of sin is acquired. Baptism pours the Power of Godliness into the recipients priesthood by connecting the individual back to the mind of God. Baptism therefore removes the condemnation on the "church" (the people) if they will just humble themselves and perform it after having repented. </div><div><br></div><div>It is humiliating to be baptized. It is humiliating to come before your own congregation or fellowship of believers and acknowledge you have sin--again. That's why Alma defines humility the way he does: as baptism. </div><div><br></div><div>Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart (Alma 32:16)</div><div><br></div><div>Alma draws an equivalency here: be humble, or in other words, be baptized. </div><div><br></div><div>Humility = Baptism</div><div><br></div><div>If we plug "baptism" in for the word humility wherever we find it in the Book of Mormon, a whole new meaning comes out, and it addresses the major theme of the Book of Mormon as given by President Benson: Pride. Baptism is the antidote for pride because baptism IS humility! We even call it the "pride cycle" in the Book of Mormon. And the drum beat to combat pride throughout the most correct book is: repent (present tense) and be baptized, (present tense). It is pride and arrogance that keeps us from following our Lord and Savior down into the waters of baptism. Give up your pride and go he baptized so that you can receive the fruit of repentance, which is a remission of your sins! To hold onto pride and refuse to be humble (baptized) is to remain under condemnation. </div><div><br></div><div>Baptism means re-baptism. We wouldn't even think in terms of "re-take the sacrament", we just think of it as sacrament. So why do we think of baptism that way? Do you need to repent? Then do it and them get baptized! That's what the book says. We can argue about traditions and assumptions, but what the book says is not in dispute. Repent and BE baptized. </div><div><br></div><div>Baptism brings remission of sins, or in other words, removes condemnation. And if you do that, the current latter day "church" will cast you aside. I have been cast out for exactly that. Which is exactly opposite of Alma's day: </div><div><br></div><div>"And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God--I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts--(didn't get baptized) the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous." (Alma 6:3)</div><div><br></div><div>Remember humility = baptism, so pride means they refused to repent and be baptized! therefore Alma had their names blotted out, because The Lord said:</div><div><br></div><div>"The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people" (Alma 5:57). The qualifier here for Alma being, they refused "re" baptism! The current doctrine of the LDS church, of a "one and done" baptism, results in your name being blotted out of the book of life! (According to Alma). Don't do that! </div><div><br></div><div>Good is called bad, and bad is called good. I am sure these churchmen mean well, but if you follow them they will damn you! Your name will be blotted out if you don't repent and be baptized! Repent! Awaken! Arise, "all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things" Alma 5:57</div><div><br></div><div>Coming out from the wicked here is not necessarily a physical separation, but it is at the very least a separation of spiritual magnitude. Separate your spiritual eternal soul from the prideful wicked, by what you do: get baptized. Baptism is how one comes out and becomes separate. </div><div><br></div><div>"For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled." (Alma 5:58)</div><div><br></div><div>"What have ye to say against this?" Go ahead and try! Try to deny the Christ with your excuses and lies that following a man will justify you! There is a law, irrevocably decreed before the foundations of the world! That law is baptism! Repentance is fruitless without it, or in other words, without baptism your name will be blotted out! And "if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled." </div><div><br></div><div>You can't argue away the law. It is preordained. It is eternal. You break yourself against the law. The way is simple. Small things in many instances confound the wise. I was forced to choose the Master I serve by what law I obeyed. And the church chose their master by what law they obeyed. To he humble and submit and be baptized follows a law, which having followed it, makes me subject to Christ. To revile and cast out a soul for obeying a law which brings salvation, makes these four quorums subject to the devil. We all choose our Master by the laws we obey or disobey. </div><div><br></div><div>My excommunication was sanctioned and ratified by all four Quorums that were equal in authority in the LDS church according to D&C 107. The Stake High council, the Quorum of 70, the Quorum of Twelve, and now the 1st Presidency, all being equal in authority have cast me out, severing their ties with me an innocent man, giving another witness that they have lost the keys of the kingdom. God has left them to themselves. God has made me a witness of Him and of His work thereby. The restoration of the Gospel of Christ as begun by Joseph is now recommencing. </div><div><br></div><div>1. Believe that God has recommenced His work</div><div>2. Believe in and perform the Doctrine of Christ</div><div>3. Serve and love one another giving succor and support; bearing one another burdens. </div><div><br></div><div>This is what we are charged with. More is coming if we obey with exactness what we've been given. May God have mercy on all of us as we endeavor to come unto Christ, and having Him as our God by obeying His laws. </div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-69246093738555588172015-04-20T11:41:00.001-07:002015-04-20T11:41:01.298-07:00Appeal of Disciplinary Council Decision<div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Appeal of Disciplinary Council Decision</span></div><div>April 5, 2015</div><div>The First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints In Care of Dan Barker, President of the Gilbert Highland West Stake</div><div>[Hand delivered]</div><div>Dear Presidents Monson, Eyring and Uchtdorf:</div><div><br></div><div>I have been excommunicated. The proceeding was initiated by Bishop Walch and President Barker, who were told by some un-named person whom I was not allowed to face, that I was reading the writings of a man named Denver Snuffer, and performing the church's ordinances, specifically sacrament and baptism. </div><div><br></div><div>Over the next weeks I met with President Barker in a series of interviews, answering his questions. I "confessed" to him I was performing ordinances but that they were not the church's ordinances as they differ in substance and form, and that I was not teaching them as the church's, nor that I was authorized by the church to do them, but that they were my private devotions between myself and my God, and that if I was authorized, it was by God or not at all, therefore judge ye aright for the scriptures are laid before you, will you also wrest them to your destruction?</div><div><br></div><div>Joseph Smith taught: "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed." (TPJS p. 308). </div><div><br></div><div>As I prayed and pondered this contradiction between the unchanged ordinances of Joseph, Isaiah and Adam, and the current church's changed ordinances, I read of Alma meeting privately to do ordinances out of the sight of the then current kingdom of God on the earth. In other words, Alma "hid" or kept his devotions "private". I also learned from Isaiah that: </div><div><br></div><div>"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." (Isaiah 24:5)</div><div><br></div><div>When Joseph Smith, Isaiah, (whom Moroni vouches for in Mormon 8:23, Nephi vouches for in 2 Nephi, and Christ vouches for and quotes more than any other in His lifetime), President Benson, and Jesus Christ all agree in scripture about a topic, in direct contradiction to the "current church doctrine", then that grabs my attention. What is a lad as ignorant and foolish as I to do? I took James at his word and I asked God. I have followed Christ's word as exactly as I could by remaining in honor with the church, insofar as it was in my power, while pursuing God's face privately, as scripture mandates in the words of all the holy prophets, including Christ, by performing unchanged ordinances. </div><div><br></div><div>Why not leave me alone and let me worship? I have done no harm to the church, rather I have done, as Elder Packer lamented in 2010, what too few have done. I have obtained power in the priesthood in the only way it can be obtained: by doing the ordinances undefiled and unadulterated before God, restoring the everlasting covenant with the Fathers by so doing, and thereby removing the condemnation that threatened to leave waste to the whole world unless a child turn and face them. All this because of my unworthiness before The Lord. It was and is not any great righteousness on my part, for I am less than the dust to be sure. But, rather, it is because of obedience to law, humility and repentance. I claim no position other than that of the least. </div><div><br></div><div>For this President Barker threatened to excommunicate my wife and I, and all of our 7 children, ages 6 to 19. However, remembering their ages and the reaches of his jurisdiction, he then clarified action against those who had been baptized into the church, if we did not stop immediately. Later however, President Barker sent out a text saying he had received further direction from Salt Lake and from Elders Corbridge and Greer and that he had been given direction by these higher ups to not excommunicate my children, but did receive direction to proceed with excommunicating me if I did not stop performing ordinances, and my wife for believing as I did and partaking of the ordinances with me. </div><div><br></div><div>I was told of a section of the Church Handbook of Instructions that mandated discipline for doing the church's ordinances without its permission. I again reiterated these were private devotions and I had come closer to God by following them as the book of Mormon directs and instructs, by doing and not only saying, as President Benson counseled us we must do to remove the condemnation which remains upon the church to this day (at least according to President Benson). (See D&C 84:55-57)</div><div><br></div><div>President Barker then redefined "authority" to mean "permission" as he tried to use scripture to show me no one was allowed to do ordinances unless President Monson allowed it (through my Bishop). I do not do the church's ordinances, nor can I find scripture that expressly forbids the performance of ordinances in private. I do not question the church's authority in public ordinances, nor have I taught so publicly, nor have I done so; nor have I told my leaders or the church they were wrong and must change. I support the church in its right to perform ordinances in the way they choose to administer them, and I do not question or think I have a right to challenge the church or it's leaders on these questions and do not do so now. I allow the church to worship as it may, and ask them the same. I know Joseph is a true Prophet. I know Christ. I know the Book of Mormon is true. Isn't this enough common ground to allow me to serve and worship in your congregations and God's temples?</div><div><br></div><div>I do believe I have a God given, inalienable right to privately worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, and that I in no way taught against the church or it's beliefs or it's authority. I believe these principles are coexistent and that as a worthy temple recommend holder I could be allowed to worship privately and retain my rights to worship AND serve in the church. Why would Gods church ever prohibit righteous pursuit of Godliness through the performance of unchanged authoritative ordinances which is outlined in scripture as necessary in order to see the face of God and live? (see D&C 84: 19-27). </div><div><br></div><div>Sometime later I was given notice of a Church Disciplinary Council based on performance of ordinances and apostasy. </div><div><br></div><div>The council used their dominion over me to sustain and ratify the charges of apostasy even though I do not fit ANY of the definitions of apostasy found in the handbook. Namely:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Repeatedly act in clear open and deliberate public opposition to the church or it's leaders. </div><div>None of what I have done is "public". All of my worship is and was private. I am innocent of this charge. </div><div>2. Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority. </div><div>I have never, and do not currently teach any of my beliefs nor perform the ordinances, as " church doctrine", or as church approved. I am innocent of this charge. </div><div>3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those who advocate plural marriage) after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority.</div><div>I follow the teachings of no "apostate sects". I am not currently, nor have I ever belonged to any religious sect or church or organization other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am innocent of this charge. </div><div>4. Formally join another church or advocate it's teachings.</div><div>Again, I belong to no other church other than the LDS church, nor have I in my life at any time ever belonged to any other church. I am innocent of this charge. </div><div><br></div><div>My leaders did ask me to stop doing or teaching things, but these requests did not fit the definitions listed in scripture nor the handbook, constituting apostasy, therefore to obey such requests would have placed me at odds with the handbook and the General authorities, and scripture. How can I stop acting in "public" opposition when I am not acting in a public way, but simply worshipping in private? How can I stop teaching as "church doctrine" something I did not and don't teach as "church doctrine"? How can I stop performing church ordinances when I'm not performing church ordinances? How can I stop following apostate sects that I've never joined never been a part of, nor to my knowledge, don't even exist? How can I un-join or disassociate with another church I've never joined nor does it exist?</div><div><br></div><div>I have honored my covenants. I was and am worthy of a Temple Recommend. There is nothing amiss in my behavior involving my family, the community or the church. I have simply done as the most correct book instructs and in defiance of everything evil, performed ordinances exactly as prescribed by the voice of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon. </div><div><br></div><div>The course of events makes it clear that the Stake, the Seventy and the Twelve have all been involved and bear some responsibility for this outcome. I need to afford the First Presidency the opportunity to bear responsibility as well. Therefore I am appealing the decision to you.</div><div><br></div><div>I would appreciate it if you would consider reversing the outcome. But if not then you should add your own “Amen” to this proceeding. These are important moments in the restoration. I hope you take it with the appropriate seriousness required by the trust given you, the importance of restraint by those holding priesthood office, and the measure required of you in judgment by The Lord.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely, your unworthy servant;</div><div>Jonathan Fahy Durfee</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-59645224351562655242015-03-15T00:13:00.001-07:002015-03-15T00:13:51.801-07:00A New Day Dawns<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Dear Family,<br><br>Owing to the many reports which are in circulation in relation to my family's private religious worship, all of which has resulted in assaults against our character, whether intentional or un-intentional, I have been induced to write this letter, to disabuse the minds of those so doing, and to put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts, as they have transpired, in relation both to myself and my family, so far as I have such facts in my possession.<br><br>Inasmuch as fear reigns in the hearts of many, I feel I must disclose up front that on the night of Thursday March 5th and into the morning of March 6th, at exactly midnight I, Jonathan was excommunicated from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for apostasy. Kari was excommunicated 3 days later on Sunday March 8th at 9:30pm, for the same false accusation of apostasy as I was. All this came as a result of our desire to enter into the Presence of God and His angels, which necessarily includes following the precepts of the most correct book on earth, to not only say but to DO, (D&C 84) which book and it's precepts are "not in line with current church doctrine", according to the testimony of both our Bishop and Stake President. (Their words not mine). Therefore, if you do not want to read or know about or understand the precepts contained in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book, and also if you have no desire to see into our hearts and our journey, and you fear that you may be damaged by reading further, please stop and do not continue. For we have been cast into that pit of despair by our brethren even as Joseph of old, apparently without water, all with a smile on the face of authority. <br><br>Here are the official definitions:<br>Apostasy<br>1. Repeatedly act in clear open and deliberate public opposition to the church or it's leaders. <br>2. Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority. <br>3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those who advocate plural marriage) after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority. <br>4. Formally join another church or advocate it's teachings. <br><br>They read these definitions from the handbook but never accused me of any particular charge, nor told me which charge was made against me, nor told me which charge in their opinion I was guilty of. So my response is to all four charges listed in the CHI. <br>As to accusation:<br>1. I have never publicly acted in any way in opposition to the church or it's leaders. I have worshipped in private, but I have never sought to convince or publicly preach my private views. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. My only speaking of my beliefs has been in private conversations. <br>2. I have never preached or taught as "church doctrine" anything other than approved correlated material. I have had private discussions regarding scripture (that is approved as the canon for the church btw) but I never taught anything as church doctrine that wasn't "accepted" as such. My bishop nor the stake president could identify anything I had taught as church doctrine that was false doctrine. I have different views, but I never taught my views as church doctrine. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. <br>3. I have never followed the teachings of any "apostate sects". I do not belong to, nor I have I ever belonged to any earthly church but the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I do not belong to any other "sect" or church. I have not started a church nor do I intend to. The claim that I "follow Denver Snuffer" therefore I follow an apostate sect, is false. I do not follow him or any other man. I have never met the man, I do not follow him, I testified that for me he is not a prophet, I don't belong to nor do I even know of a church of his that I even could belong to if I wanted to. I am following the scriptures. My views do closely align with Denver's, but that is my own truth and knowledge from God to me, and you can leave him out of it. My beliefs are mine and not anyone else's. I AM INNOCENT of the charge. <br>4. Once again, I do not belong to any other church, nor do I teach any other church's teachings. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. <br><br>I testified of my innocence of all these charges, and asked to go my way in peace, restoring me to full fellowship. I would not accuse them if they did not accuse me. They instead claimed I belonged to and taught the teachings of a church and sect that does NOT exist, by a man I've never met and do NOT follow, teaching as church doctrine some undefined and unnamed "false doctrine". (which was never explained, nor was I given where I might find said "true" or "false" "church doctrine" in scripture, being referred instead to "current church doctrine", and the handbook. <br><br>My Story<br>It has been my desire for some years now, to obtain an audience with The Lord, as the scriptures, specifically the Book of Mormon, make the astounding claim that doing so is not only how redemption is obtained, but also the moment in which it is in fact received, and that this must be done while in this life. To accomplish this it is necessary to know upon what principles this may be accomplished, if in fact it is necessary for salvation, and where to find the principles laid out, if in fact such principles exist. <br><br>Who do I think I am? Why would I believe I could, or that I even had a right to seek such blessings? <br><br>I trust Joseph’s certification of the Book of Mormon when he said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (DHC 4: 461.) I would like to be nearer to God. <br><br>When I compare the speculation of scholars, or what others, perhaps well intentioned, put forth "in the absence of revelation" (to quote a recent church press release referring to past presidents of the church being in "the absence of revelation"), when I compare all of that to what Joseph had revealed to him, I believe it safe to invariably trust Joseph whenever the two differ. God vouched for Joseph's words in revelation. <br><br>I trust Joseph Smith and I trust the Book of Mormon as Gods word to me to bring to pass my immortality and eternal life. Here is something from what came to us through Joseph: <br><br>2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.<br><br>3 It was CONFERRED UPON ME FROM THE FATHERS, it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.<br><br>4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.<br>Abraham 1:2-4<br><br>I trusted Joseph was telling me how to obtain this priesthood and that I too had a right to seek for greater happiness peace and rest, and the right to administer the same. <br><br>But it isn’t simply Joseph we need to be concerned with. It is the God of Heaven who spoke to Joseph who is the real issue. First, we should resolve the issue of whether God CAN still speak to mankind. If so, then will He speak to you? Joseph stands for the idea that one recently lived life received God’s direct involvement. It opens the possibility God can continue to be involved with anyones life. But the proof of God’s involvement in your own life remains to be accomplished. If you don’t hear from God directly then Joseph’s contact with Him is largely meaningless. Joseph taught that promises made to anyone else are unrelated to and do not benefit you. You must go get your own.<br><br>"You, no doubt, will agree with us, and say, that you have no right to claim the promises of the inhabitants before the flood; that you cannot found your hopes of salvation upon the obedience of the children of Israel when journeying in the wilderness, nor can you expect that the blessings which the apostles pronounced upon the churches of Christ eighteen hundred years ago, were intended for you. Again, if others’ blessings are not your blessings, others’ curses are not your curses; you stand then in these last days, as all have stood before you, agents unto yourselves, to be judged according to your works.” (TPJS p. 12.)<br><br>So what does that look like? What is salvation? In Ether <a href="x-apple-data-detectors://4" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="4">3:13</a> it says:<br><br>And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.<br><br>The moment in which the Brother of Jared is redeemed is when The Lord brings him back into His Presence. We can see therefore that salvation consists of entering into the Presence of The Lord, and seeing Him face to face while in the flesh. <br><br>D&C 93:1:<br>"Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am."<br><br>EVERY SOUL! Does this include you and me?<br><br>If you believe that this is a singular event in scripture then you are not paying attention to scripture. From Adam, to Enoch, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Elijah, Samuel, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Alma, Ammon, Aaron, Omner, Lamoni, his father the King, Helaman, Nephi and Lehi brothers, Moroni, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Ether, a whole list in the book of Ether, and all the holy Fathers, all these came into the Presence of The Lord while in mortality. Joseph Smith also entered the Presence of God. All these were saved and redeemed from the fall by this experience.<br><br>Go to Doctrine and Covenants section 76. The closing verses in the Vision beginning at verse 114 tell us: <br><br>"But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory." <br><br>There are things both unlawful and impossible to make known. But they are neither unlawful nor impossible for God to make known. You are invited to receive them “while in the flesh” or, in other words, now, in mortality. This is not kept from us until the afterlife. This is what God offers to us all right now. <br><br>Is God Changeable?<br>The next question we must ask is God changeable? Can I expect to receive salvation some other way other than in this pattern found in scripture? Would God save us in the exact same way He has and will save all His children? Or will He save us by some other way? Would an ordinance deliver salvation? Or are they a type or symbol for actually entering into the Presence of God? Of actually conversing with The Lord through the veil? Has God given His power to men? Has Christ ceased to minister? Can I trust the arm of flesh or am I required, like all before me, in every age of man since Adam down to the present day, to arise and enter His Presence myself, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling by so doing?<br><br>Moroni <a href="x-apple-data-detectors://5" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="5">8:18</a> answers: "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."<br><br>So if salvation and redemption from the fall consists of entering into God's Presence while in the flesh, and God is unchangeable, then I believe that this is how and when salvation occurs. <br><br>How then do I enter into Gods Presence? It seems almost impossible. As I considered the narrowness of the pass and the height of the mountain necessary to ascend, I shrank. I get the fear. I get the reluctance to approach the mount. I also stood afar off and watched the lightning and the thunderings. I understand the Terror of The Lord. I was content to let my own modern day Moses go up for me, and for a long time I believed that was salvific. <br><br>18 ¶And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.<br><br>19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.<br>Exodus <a href="x-apple-data-detectors://6" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="6">20:18-19</a><br><br>It was too high a mountain, and the requirements were too narrow and fear took the very heart of me. I also had 40+ years of a reliance upon the arm of flesh built into my religion which said, "you don't need to talk with God, we will do that for you; you will see Him in the next life, you do not need to enter in to His Presence in this life". <br><br>After much study and prayer, I decided that if Joseph and all the other holy men could and did find God despite the fearfulness of the journey, and despite the false traditions of my fathers, (Abraham 1:5), I found courage in the words of James; I decided that I too lacked wisdom and that perhaps God would also answer a lad as ignorant and foolish as myself; and so I decided to inquire. <br><br>The answer came at first not by a pillar of light, or an angelic encounter, but by the spirit directing me to the gospel of Christ that remains still in scripture. <br><br>20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.<br><br>21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;<br><br>22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.<br><br>23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;<br><br>24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.<br><br>25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;<br><br>26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;<br><br>27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.<br>D&C 84:19-27<br><br>The Power of Godliness is required to see the face of God and live. <br><br>The Power of Godliness is manifest in:<br>1. the ordinances and <br>2. in the authority of the priesthood. <br><br>I trusted this. I acted on this. But got nothing. I struggled for years as I cried to The Lord to bestow upon me also the Power of Godliness. What was wrong? Why could I not obtain this Power of Godliness? Did God no longer appear to men? Was salvation not found in the earth? Was I doomed to be cast out forever because God had changed the rules and I was ignorant of His new ones, or was I doing something wrong in my approach?<br><br>As I cried out to The Lord, He kept leading me to the ordinances. "Why don't they work for me", I finally cried out? The answer was a thunderbolt and a lightning bolt that struck fear in me. Truly a moment of "awakening to my awful situation", as the answer came again in the form of scripture. <br><br>"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."<br>Isaiah 24:5<br><br>The ordinances are not the same as Joseph restored them! We use different implements and different words, and different requirements for access to the ordinances, and by so doing we "break the everlasting covenant". We do not perform ordinances the same as in Joseph's day, nor as described in the Book of Mormon, by the words of Christ Himself. There is also no other church that calls their covenants, "the everlasting covenant". Isaiah was speaking to us! To me! I was not receiving the power of Godliness from the ordinances because they had been changed and thereby broken. <br><br>So I need:<br>1. To see the face of God while in the flesh for redemption<br>2. To do so and live I must have the power of godliness<br>3. To get the Power of Godliness I must perform a valid/unchanged ordinance with real priesthood power, not just a form of priesthood as Christ informs Joseph in the first vision. <br><br>We have come full circle, where we as latter day saints find ourselves with a form of Godliness without any power. How is that possible you ask? We have assurances we will never be led astray! We have a unbroken chain of authority from Joseph to now! We have the ordinances and the priesthood and this is Gods church! We are His chosen people! Yes. I thought the same thing. But an empty hole filled my heart, because I knew I didn't know God and I knew there was something more. Deep down I knew salvation meant something more. Why was I being told "all is well in Zion", and that they would speak to God for me? Had God changed the rules?<br><br>I had come to a cross roads. Either I trusted that God spoke to man still, and furthermore that He was speaking to me, and leading me as I went forward, or I must return to the idolatry of my fathers and accept that God had given His power to men and no longer ministered personally; he had completed His work and left it to men. <br><br>And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;<br>2 Nephi 28:5<br><br>The thing that tripped me up in this verse for a long time was the phrase, "behold there is no God today". The leaders always spoke of and testified of God. None ever said those words of Nephi. But what do those words mean? If they changed the ordinances and defined priesthood as "the power to act in Gods name on the earth" (Joseph F. Smith came up with that definition), but God had never given His Power to men, but wanted to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life by coming to us and appearing to us and taking up His abode with us, then they could profess "God" but they would be denying the very way in which God does His work, thereby essentially saying "there is no God". The best way to deceive is not to get us deny God by our words, but for us to do as all men have done in every age, and that is to profess Gods name while denying His personal ministry among us, preferring instead a form of Godliness delivered by the arm of flesh, to His actual power, the Power of Godliness. <br><br>As I determined that I must perform an unchanged ordinance, or be damned, the question became, "How to get authority?" How does God work among men? Is He distant and unknowable or is He directly and personally involved? Once again Joseph came with an answer:<br><br>27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, <br>28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, NOT BY MAN nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God; <br>29 And it was delivered unto men by the CALLING OF HIS OWN VOICE, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.<br>JST, Genesis 14:27-29<br><br>Priesthood comes "NOT BY MAN... But of God... Delivered unto men by the calling of His own voice."<br><br>Could this be true? Perhaps I was deceived and reading the scriptures wrong and interpreting them contrary to Gods will?<br><br>42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, BY MINE OWN VOICE, out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.<br>D&C 84:42<br><br>Not only does God give priesthood by His own voice out of the heavens, but "wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood...which I now confirm by mine own voice out of the heavens"<br><br>Do we really have to hear Gods voice for priesthood? We have a direct line of authority from Moses down right? So said the Jews in Christ's time and Laman to his father Lehi, and the Catholics to the Christians, and now our leaders claim the same power as Joseph simply because they sit in the same seat as Joseph. But did God speak by His own voice out of the heavens to Joseph? Is that how he received all he did including his priesthood? So if Joseph so received, why not me?<br><br>52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.<br>53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.<br>D&C 84:52-53<br><br>The righteous hear Gods voice. <br>The wicked are those who do NOT hear His voice.<br>Can this be right? <br><br>Wo's, and descriptions and definitions of the righteous vs. the wicked that make us squirm! Thunder and lightning indeed!! No wonder we as Latter Day Saints "stand afar off" and ask our Moses to "go up" for us! This is disturbing stuff! God should not say such things! It gives me a dark feeling! This D&C and God's words here must be of the devil because would He really require us to hear his voice before we have priesthood? I feel dark from these words! Am I really wicked if I do not hear His voice? Should I take serious when God pronounces a "wo" upon all who do not receive this priesthood by His own voice out if heaven? God is going to lose His audience if He keeps saying things that cause me such discomfort! We are prospering! Zion is here and well! Tell me some more soothing stories of our noble pioneers so I feel good about my current position before God! <br><br>4 Nephi 1:26-27:<br>"...and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ."<br><br>Is the Mormon church "built up to get gain"? I don't ask that with any judgement. I'm asking: Is it? Is it worth Billions of dollars? Can billions of dollars be considered "gain"? Are the top officials of the LDS church among the highest paid clergy in the world? If so, does that equal "gain"? What does "modest stipend" mean? Does that mean if you compare the "stipend" of the top leaders of the church to equivalent salaries of CEO's running similarly valued companies it's "a modest stipend"? Or does if mean just enough to live on? When you define and see what they mean by "modest stipend", and you see the brethren and their friends and families living in lavish million dollars homes and faring sumptuously while the poor suffer, are you willing to be honest with yourself about whether the church is "built up to get gain"? Is telling the truth "evil speaking"? I ask these hard questions because my eternal soul hangs in the balance. I need to know so that I can determine how to proceed. I must see things as they really are or I am blinded by the craftiness of men who will always offer a false religion using the vocabulary of scripture. If the leaders are doing this does it affect my salvation? Can I allow them to do as they are and not judge them and forgive them and then go pursue the Holy One of Israel directly and stop relying on the arm of flesh? Is that the only real value of seeing these things as they are? Not to judge but to offer mercy and forgiveness and then stop my idolatry and go and do as the Book of Mormon asks and come into the Presence of God?<br><br>27 And it came to pass that when two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet THEY DID DENY the MORE PARTS OF HIS GOSPEL, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.<br><br>Is putting the church handbook higher in order than the truest book on earth "denying the more parts of His gospel"? If the handbook and the truest book differ which one can I rely on to bring me "closer to God"? If I choose wrong, would I move farther away from God or closer? If farther away from God what are my views? What are my perceptions? These are difficult questions. <br><br>So I need:<br>1. To see the face of God while in the flesh to receive redemption<br>2. To do so and live I must have the power of godliness<br>3. To get the Power of Godliness I must perform a valid ordinance that is unchanged<br>4. with real priesthood power, not just a form of it as Moroni informs Joseph<br>5. Priesthood comes not by men, but the voice of God<br>6. Wo unto all who do not hear his voice; these are the "wicked"<br>7. Denying Christ is about not coming into His Presence, and teaching it's not necessary. <br><br>It begins and ends then with a valid ordinance and priesthood from God. How then to proceed? What is the process? Once again we turn to the Book of Mormon for an answer and find the words of Christ himself, telling us how to proceed, and what His doctrine is. <br><br>31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.<br><br>32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.<br><br>33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.<br><br>Doctrine:<br>Repent. <br>Be Baptized. <br><br>34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.<br><br>35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.<br><br>The reason to be baptized is, baptism by water, after having repented, causes the recipient to be visited with "fire" and the Holy Ghost. Are these separate? Different? Why make the distinction if they are the same exact thing? <br><br>36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.<br><br>37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.<br><br>"And again". <br><br>What does that mean? Does "again" mean, to repeat? To do it again? Because, he commanded all to be baptized. These He was speaking to would have obeyed. They were in His Presence. Why does He say, "and again"? Could it be that The Lord may have known that we are weak? That we fall into error and sin? Is the merciful Lord speaking in a manner that we may know how to become clean without spot before. Him? Is this mechanism baptism? <br><br>25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;<br>Moroni <a href="x-apple-data-detectors://7" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="7">8:25</a><br><br>If any of us has fallen into sin, what is the gift God has given to allow us to get back to being right with God? Yes. Repentance. And here we learn that the "first fruit" of repentance is BAPTISM! Does partaking of the sacrament often make it less meaningful? So why do we think to be baptized again would? If this is the most correct book and these really are Christ's words, can I trust them? What if someone else in a position of authority speaks in direct contradiction to these words of Christ? Which one do we trust? Does our very eternal soul hang in the balance if our choice? <br><br>38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.<br><br>Three "agains". Three levels. Perhaps this book has something in it that can bring me the thing I desire! Perhaps the power of Godliness is not so impossible after all! If this doctrine, of this Christ, can be trusted here in the most correct book on earth, perhaps by following it I can lay hold on the blessing of all the saints of former days!<br><br>39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.<br><br>What is the rock? <br>This doctrine of Christ. <br>What doctrine is that?<br>To "be" baptized" --present tense. <br>When? <br>Whenever I desire to bring forth fruit following my repentance. <br><br>To be baptized after repentance is to validate or "bring forth fruit" which is the Rock. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against that soul who follows the law preordained before the foundation of the world upon which that blessing is predicated. Can we expect to receive this blessing of the gates of hell not prevailing against us by following a different law? Can we "follow the brethren" in doing exactly opposite of what Christ tells us to do, and still expect the gates of hell to not prevail? Or must we do as Jesus asks?<br><br>40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.<br>3 Nephi 11:31-40<br><br>Any more, or any less, cometh of evil, and the gates of hell stand open to these. Depending on what law we obey, the gates of hell are either open or shut for us. This is an awful situation indeed! How can I know where to find solid ground? Is this doctrine of Christ to be trusted? Or can I trust a handbook I've never read, written by a committee of men I never sustained or do not even know who they are? Why is there such a large gulf between the two? Doesn't God know this is His church? Why does He not stop this? Is it possible God has allowed us to choose for ourselves? Have we chosen to have a King just like ancient Israel? Is it possible He really is the same, and that we are faced with the same awful dilemma of every age from Adam down, namely the choice between the precepts on men, and their false assurances of safety and "all is well" on the one hand, and the subtle whisperings of the spirit telling you to come unto Christ while in this life, in the flesh, and receive the salvation He offers by His personal and literal appearance to you. <br><br>5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.<br><br>6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.<br><br>7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.<br><br>8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the wine of the cup and drink of it, and that they should also give unto the multitude that they might drink of it.<br><br>9 And it came to pass that they did so, and did drink of it and were filled; and they gave unto the multitude, and they did drink, and they were filled.<br><br>10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you.<br><br>11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.<br><br>12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.<br><br>13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.<br><br>14 Therefore blessed are ye if ye shall keep my commandments, which the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you.<br>3 Nephi 18:5-14<br><br>Interesting that Christ implements baptism and calls it His doctrine, and His rock, and says any more than this cometh of evil and then immediately He adds the sacrament with bread and wine as also being part of that same doctrine. Does this have to do with the "floods" and the "winds" coming to beat upon them? If baptism is the Rock of Christ, the sacrament is to fortify us after we get our feet on the rock from the winds and floods that are going to beat upon us and try and get us off the rock of baptism. The sacrament is to remind us that the rock is baptism. Sacrament helps us keep our feet on that rock. Sacrament does not replace the rock! It helps keep us on the rock as the winds and floods come upon us and try to knock us off. <br><br>Believing that I could get nearer to God by abiding by the precepts in the most correct book, I once again asked God, because if anyone lacked wisdom it is me. And God spoke also to me, giving me power and authority to baptize and bless the sacrament by His own voice out if the heavens. And when there was doubt He assured me: "You go down to the river in faith and enter in, and if no one else will baptize you, then I will provide a way or I will do it Myself"<br><br>So I repented. Like never before. For an entire lifetime of sin. For all that I lacked. For my false traditions and my lack of knowledge. I cried unto God pleading for Him to have mercy upon me also! <br><br>On September 21, 2012, on the fall equinox, along with my wife and daughter, I drove to the river near my home in the early morning hours to meet a friend who had agreed to baptize me. We knelt in humble prayer and dedicated the spot. Our own little "waters of Mormon" as we were told to call it. <br><br>And as I came out of the water, I prophesied in the name of The Lord of things that were shortly to come to pass. Of the fulfillment of the prophesy of John the Baptist: "that the sons of Levi would soon make an acceptable offering in righteousness before The Lord", and that "the time was at hand for The Lord to commence His work in bringing to pass the covenants made to the fathers", and that "a mighty work would be performed here in this Phoenix area". <br><br>On the following day I ascended a high mountain near my home and partook of the sacrament in the exact way Christ instituted it in 3 Nephi, and as He did to Joseph Smith. And the heavens opened and I beheld a light above a bush and was shown things such that, I can testify that I too have had my own "first vision" type encounter with God. I know Joseph saw what he saw because I too was shown a similar vision, and experienced my own personal encounter with the divine. <br><br>From that day to today, I continue to "meet together oft" and to partake of the sacred emblems and to baptize and be baptized according to the word of Christ, in keeping His commandments, even as they of old times did also. <br><br>5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.<br><br>6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.<br>Moroni 6:5-6<br><br>Church here should be understood to be the believers. The few humble followers of Christ, not an organized body or institution. We may belong to these earthly institutions, but this is referencing another church; an assembly of another world. <br><br>As a result of my pursuit of this Jesus of whom all the prophets have testified, I have been subjected to church disciplinary action culminating in a meeting where I was required to come and defend myself in front of the high counsel, against a charge that in the handbook is in seriousness next to murder and child abuse. For what? For simply doing what the Book of Mormon says. For in this way and this way only can the condemnation under which we as a latter day people labor under be removed. <br><br>54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--<br><br>55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.<br><br>56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.<br><br>57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, NOT ONLY TO SAY, BUT TO DO according to that which I have written--<br><br>58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.<br>D&C 84:54-58<br><br>Vanity is false belief, and a darkened mind is the result, and these two bring condemnation. And the only way to remove it is "not only to say but to do" the precepts found in the Book of Mormon, which will be to bring forth "fruit". Is this the same "first fruit" of Moroni <a href="x-apple-data-detectors://10" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="10">8:25</a>, baptism? Is there another church or group that call themselves Zion other than the Latter Day Saints? Why is The Lord speaking of a "scourge and judgement to be poured out upon the children of Zion"? Who is this? Is this the Latter Day Saints? The chosen people? Why would a scourge come upon us? We will never be led astray and no matter what we choose to do or what ordinances we change and alter, or how much we change the "doctrine", God will not allow us the agency to choose to go against God's will, right? <br><br>Wait... Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever? And who was it that killed Him? Wasn't it His chosen people? Is it possible we are no better than the Jews in Christ's time? If we refuse to behold Him do we not deny Him? Is it not those who "hear not His voice", whom God calls wicked? Is it not always so in every age of man, that mankind would rather choose religion and ordinances by men over waiting patiently "for messengers from my Father" as did Adam? Why do we not do as Adam in the temple film? Why do we prefer to accept the "many who will be willing to preach you the precepts of men... Mingled with scripture", instead of waiting for Fathers messengers, or angels to come and teach us? <br><br>When I began to do the ordinances, I was told not to fight against the church. I was told I did not have the right to tell the church to change the way they do things or how they perform ordinances. Rather, The Lord instructed me that I was to avoid the spies of the King and to perform the ordinances "privately" out of the sight of the King and his men. And to continue to serve and belong to the LDS church. But He also said, that to be redeemed and enter in, I must perform the unchanged ordinances with authority from the voice of God, receive the Power of Godliness thereby, so I could enter His Presence and live! <br><br>I am the least of everyone of you. I am a bigger sinner and have been more lost than any of you. What does that tell you? If everyone of you in our families is a better person than me, what does that say?<br><br>If God will speak to me, He will speak to you. Do you trust Him? Do you trust Joseph? Do you trust James? James started it! Do you trust the most correct book, the Book of Mormon? If you continue to say you do, but refuse to "do" what the Book is inviting you to do, can you expect the same blessing as if you did "do" what it's asking? Is this the obedience required of us? Or is the obedience required the subjugation of our wills to an oligarchy of men in direct conflict with the scriptures? <br><br>I take seriously my temple covenant to "obey the law of the gospel as CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE". I have not and will not make any such oath or covenant to any man or to the handbook of men. I will never again subject myself to the authority of men. I am free to be about my Fathers business at last! <br><br>I love each of you. I do not think myself better, but consider myself the least of you. Come unto Christ and Live!<br><br>To reject me or anyone for abiding by the precepts of the Book of Mormon is to reject the Book of Mormon itself. To cast me out for abiding by and living and doing what the Book of Mormon teaches, is to cast out the Book of Mormon as your canon. It is to say and not do. It is to have a form without any power. Can we lay hold upon the blessing of drawing closer to God by refusing to obey the law upon which drawing closer to God is predicated, namely doing what the Book says? to cast out the Book of Mormon is to NOT get closer to God because our refusal to abide by its precepts and we thereby remove ourselves from the light and knowledge God intends and desires to give us so that we may have clearer perceptions and ascend grace for grace until the perfect day when we encounter Christ exactly the same way all the holy prophets have done from the beginning, and thereby receive redemption and salvation. <br><br>When Joseph Smith was being abused by the religionists of his day, he observed “they treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil. That there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things [were confined to and the sole right of] the apostles.” (JS-H 1: 21.) <br><br>The people who rejected Joseph’s beliefs were rejecting the Bible itself, which they pretended was the basis for their faith. Joseph did what James 1: 5 instructed him to do, and got an answer. That is the faith he restored: A living faith in which God will speak to all who, like me, lack wisdom, liberally. I lack wisdom. I go to God with questions. So long as any of us ask in faith, He will answer. I know. He has answered me. Now Latter-day Saints think it is their right to denounce others who have asked God, and have been answered. If Latter-day Saints do possess the truth, then for those they think in error should be met with kindness, not reviling. <br><br>(See JS-H 1: 25.) “If they suppose me to be deluded they ought to endeavor in a proper and affectionate manner to reclaim me.” (JS-H 1: 28.) Instead I hear the accusation I am “apostate”, and now I have been cast out. I am not a dissident nor have I fought against the church or it's leaders. It must put a smile on the faces of authority and the devil to cast out those seeking to do what the most correct book tells us to do. These disciples pretend to follow Joseph's restored religion while acting the part of his persecutors. The saints have come full circle indeed.<br><br>Where exactly do you draw the line and begin to denounce others as “apostate and cast me out?<br><br>If we both believe in the Book of Mormon, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If we both believe Joseph Smith was called of God to restore the Gospel, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If we both accept the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If we both believe in continuing revelation and that God has yet to reveal a great deal as part of the Restoration of all, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If we have all of the foregoing in common, is that enough to respect one another as fellow-believers? Or do you require much more of me than I can give in order to avoid being denounced by you? How much do you want to micromanage my beliefs? Do you ever feel any twinge of concern about not permitting others to worship “according to the dictates of their conscience, and allow others the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may?” (Paraphrase of 11th Article of Faith)<br><br>If I believe priesthood has no authority over me, and you believe as Elder Oaks declared from general conference that the “keys” are the right to exercise authority, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” What if my belief is based on the scripture “no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood” which I hold in higher regard than a declaration from a church official to the contrary? (See D&C121: 41)<br><br>If I believe the Lectures on Faith are still scripture, but you do not, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If I believe the LDS Church has changed dramatically in my lifetime, and even more since Joseph Smith died, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”<br><br>If I believe the scriptures were given to control and govern the faith, and you believe whatever comes from living church officials can contradict or disregard the words of scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I can tolerate your view in this regard, even if I do not share it, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I use the scriptures and you use the scriptures, why are your views correct and mine incorrect? How did we arrive at the odd position that you get to call me “apostate” for believing the scriptures differently than you do? If you trust that “keys” are the thing that guarantees you salvation, what exactly are the “keys,” allowed by scripture, that bear that out?<br><br>If I will let you go in peace, why cannot you let me go likewise in peace. The LDS church is an institution of this world, not of the next. We should care less for the things of this world than we do. I am very content with my faith in God, and I'm trying to be in harmony with everything He has asked of me. If you believe the same about yourself, then let that be your assurance and have the confidence to leave me to go my way in peace. Practice your beliefs in the way you think God wants, and I will do the same.<br><br>I will never again submit to another man’s priestly claim to dominion, control, judgment or oppression. It was denounced in scripture, and I reject such things. (D&C 121: 36-42.) If you think there is a priest who has the right to demand things of you in exchange for saving you using some “key,” I do not share your belief, but I am perfectly willing to respect you if that is yours. Happy is the man who serves his God in faith and conviction. Happier still is the man whose God is Christ and therefore respects his right to voluntarily act for himself, accepting full accountability for his beliefs, and not expecting man to save him using authority to do so.<br><br>If, by your definition, I am “apostate,” then let me assure you I am content to be so. I am fully willing to accept whatever Christ’s judgment is for being so. More importantly, I am entirely satisfied I remain in harmony with what God expects of me, and I wish the same for you.<br><br>We love you all. We are happy to now be able to stop hiding at the fountain of fresh water, both from you and from the Kings men. We meant no disrespect, nor hypocrisy, but believed it a personal private matter between us and God, as the current church doctrine is not the doctrine of Christ found in the most correct book, but we felt we had no right to question our leaders on how they do things, but only to pursue our God in private, DOING what the book invites all to do, and for that reason we remained quiet and hid ourselves, as it were. <br><br>We love The Lord Jesus Christ. He died. I know because I was given to experience His sufferings and His pains as He suffered in Gethsemane and on the cross. He lives. I know because I have seen Him. He speaks to mankind still. I know because He speaks also to me. I am a literal witness of these things and more. I know Joseph Smith is who he claimed to be because he has born witness to me personally and has ministered to me. The book of Mormon is the most correct book on the earth. I know because it has brought me close to God and by following its precepts, by doing and not just saying, I have entered in and I know The Lord. You can too. I only tell you these things because He wants you to do the same. That is His work and His glory. If you will only have even a desire to believe, let that desire work in you until it grows into a living breathing faith that when rightly pursued always terminates in the Presence of The Lord. <br><br>With love,<br><br>Jonny and Kari Durfee<br></span><span style="font-family: UICTFontTextStyleBody; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"></span><br style="font-family: UICTFontTextStyleBody; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-2704868945159515842015-03-06T12:42:00.001-08:002015-03-06T12:42:38.598-08:00The Bells Toll<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.</div><div><br></div><div>10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.</div><div>D&C 63:9-10</div><div><br></div><div>Signs from God come to mankind because of their existing belief, by the will of God. Signs do not come to those who do not yet believe and seek the sign in order to believe, but rather come as a result of already believing. In these signs, we can see and learn about the personality of God if we learn to see and recognize Him through these "signs" that He gives to believers. Gods cheery temperament comes through as He fulfills prophecy and gives signs to believers. The joy of God is truly manifest in the "coming to know Him". </div><div><br></div><div>I was told the following quote recently as I tried to make heads or tails of what to make of my recent experience with church leaders and a seemingly impending death by excommunication. </div><div><br></div><div>"In the middle ages, formal acts of public excommunication were sometimes accompanied by a ceremony wherein a bell was tolled (as for the dead), the book of the gospels was closed and a candle snuffed out."</div><div><br></div><div>As I heard this, I was struck by the Lords ironic sense of humor and thoughts and connections came to my mind as I pondered on the words. </div><div><br></div><div>The Bells Tolling</div><div>Many years ago, words and music were put into my mind by the Spirit which became a song. I have never known quite what to make of the words until now, these many many years later. Here are some of the words:</div><div><br></div><div>"Do you know?</div><div>That the bells toll for you?</div><div>Do you know?</div><div>That My heart breaks for you?"</div><div><br></div><div>I always felt from this song as if the angels and heavens weep for me, and I always perceived that Heaven was weeping for my foolishness and wicked unbelief and pride, and that God gave me this song to testify of that sorrow of Heaven on behalf of my awful situation. I still believe that. Heaven weeps for all of us. </div><div><br></div><div>But here as I face the "council of love", as my Bishop called it, God speaks to me again, and quietly lets me know that He always planned on this day for me! He always wanted me to be right here, with bells tolling my "death." I'm sure there will not be any literal bells tolling as our meeting houses do not have bells. But in the words of a song, given long ago by revelation, God has let me know that as the bells toll on my membership in the church, His heart is breaking. Breaking for me, breaking for men who believe God has given His power to men, (see 2 Nephi 28:5), and who believe that God cannot and does not speak to the lost soul with dry bones and a parched mouth, and that He cannot restore lost rites even when the shepherds scatter the flock, and keep the weak cattle from coming to the water, and then as if keeping the sheep from the living waters is not enough, they think they have to foul the water up too. (See Ezekiel 34)</div><div><br></div><div>God intends to quench our thirst! He offers living waters! He has set His Hand again in establishing righteousness once again on earth to man. He intends to renew and restore our dry bones, and our dry unfruitful covenants, and to at last come and dwell among some body of believers, however few that may turn out to be. And any man or institution which denies anyone this, will dam themselves and any who give heed to them! The question is, can anyone currently obtain the Power of Godliness through the ordinances with power enough to save in them? Because once you change the ordinance, the everlasting covenant is broken, (Isaiah 24:5) and it becomes just a form of Godliness without any power to save, (JSH 1:19) which power of Godliness is required to "see the face of God and live" (D&C 84:20-25) which is the definition of salvation. (Ether 3:13) So if you can lay hold upon that power, and see Gods face and live with a changed broken ordinance without form and void, then I say go do it! But if it is now required to get that from a broken off remnant branch in whom God has preserved the restoration, then you may want to look into that with some seriousness, because Gods coming will burn them up root AND branch unto death if any of those roots or branches are not connected directly into the vine. </div><div><br></div><div>Closing the Gospels</div><div>The second act upon excommunication was to close the book of the gospels. This has been so true in my own experience, when our leaders told my wife and I, that we were guilty of "teaching false doctrine" when we taught our children "gospel precepts that are not in line with current church doctrine", even if those doctrines were found in the scriptures. </div><div><br></div><div>I asked, if the scriptures contradict "current church doctrine", how can I know how to proceed to lay hold upon salvation? I don't have access to the church handbook, nor have I ever read it. How can I be judged on a standard that I don't know and is not established by common consent of the church? This violates the laws of the land, and it don't mean the constitution although that may have once been true. I'm speaking of the laws inherent in the "land" upon which we dwell, for this is the land of Christ, and He will have it for His people if they will hearken to His voice, to not only say but to do. Without full disclosure to the body of believers, nor acceptance by common consent, the current leadership has pulled a switcheroo and supplanted Gods laws with the devils by setting aside basic inalienable rights given us before the foundation of the world. Nephi says the iron rod is the word of God! Does that mean the handbook? Or does it happen to refer to the word of God or the scriptures? I understand that the word of God has other layers of meaning, but for this purpose, at minimum, the word of God includes the vision of all inasmuch as it is contained in scripture. </div><div><br></div><div>I've also covenanted in the temple to obey the law of the gospel as contained in scripture. Which one do I choose? Handbook or scripture? Well, we all must decide, and eternity hangs in the balance, so we must choose aright, and each of us have to do that in an environment without coercion or force. I may speak the word of God boldly, but I do not preside over anyone and cannot compel any to even listen let alone actually do anything. My only tool is persuasion. Invitation. </div><div><br></div><div>The bottom line from the stake presidency was, I was guilty of apostasy for teaching my own children the gospel and doctrine of Christ as found in the most correct book on earth, because it contradicted "current church doctrine", which current doctrine is found in the church handbook. </div><div><br></div><div>They closed the gospels or in other words the canon of scripture or word of God in favor of a handbook written by a committee. And in saying that amen, God says amen to His association with them. By rejecting me for doing what the book says in order that I may remove the condemnation that rests upon all the Latter Day Saints, they reject their own foundational scripture and as they substitute the laws of one master for another, they become subject to their new laws and their new master and they will hear his voice instead of Christ's, and they join that great abominable church because they substitute the vocabulary of Zion for their false twisted religion built up to get gain. </div><div><br></div><div>I pointed out that if rebaptism was "church doctrine"up until the 1950's, and now it's not, then all the prophets up to the time before they changed the doctrine were leading the church astray, or the prophets since then were. Or it's not doctrine at all that we follow today but simply policy, and since we all know these men cannot lead us astray, then it is clearly just a policy, and so it wouldn't matter if I practiced the gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Book of Mormon in private, because it's simply policy. </div><div><br></div><div>Their response was we have the authority and no one else can do the ordinances unless we say so. The scripture was closed and another handbook put in their place. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is Joseph Smith on scripture in his journey to God, recorded in 1832 by Fred. Williams:</div><div>"which led me to Searching the Scriptures believing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them…and by Searching the Scriptures I found that {mand} [mankind] did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith"</div><div><br></div><div>Joseph showed the way to resolve the question of God and true worship was to resort to the word of God. Someone should have told Joseph Sr. that teaching his children to look for the answer in scripture is apostate behavior and he should have gone and looked at the correlated gospel as found in some church or others handbook. </div><div><br></div><div>Snuffing out a candle</div><div>The last thing the church would do to an excommunicant, was to snuff out a candle. This is beyond irony for me. The original accusation of apostasy against me and my family was twofold:</div><div>1. Did we currently, or have we ever at any time in the past, read the writings and teachings of a man named Denver Snuffer?</div><div>2. Are we currently or have we ever in the past performed the sacrament anywhere outside the church?</div><div><br></div><div>How funny that a candle being "snuffed" out for reading writings by a man named Snuffer is the symbol of excommunication? Even more ironic is the cover of the book that got Denver ex'ed, Passing the Heavenly Gift, has a picture of a candle going out. Denver in Lecture 2, "Faith", tells us about that snuffed out candle:</div><div><br></div><div> "To reignite the flame, all it takes is the breath of the Spirit speaking to you. That's all it takes, and the breath of the Spirit is contingent upon what it says to you. It is dependent on the faith that you have in God, to hear what it is that he's saying."-- IDF Talk</div><div><br></div><div>And faith is dependent upon a correct understanding of the nature and attributes of God which can only be obtained by sacrifice, as Joseph taught in Lectures on Faith. And as a result of the quality of faith, or in ither words the more correct ones understanding of Gods one acquires, then one hears God more clearly or less clearly. Don't let that candle get extinguished! Don't let it go dim or fade to an ember! The Book of Mormon is given to bring mankind closer to God by abiding by its precepts! Let it inform and guide your approach to Him! If you do His voice gets louder and clearer. </div><div><br></div><div>Man and their institutions can cast out those who come among them preaching the doctrine of Christ all they want. They can snuff candles out, close scripture and toll the bells for your death, but if you are ignited inside with the flame of that spirit, of knowing that I Am that I Am, then God will have a friend here on the earth and that is something men cannot touch or alter with their counsels of love and their coercive controlling and dominating behavior. For instead of removing priesthood and blessings as they desire or believe, God will answer upon their own heads their own judgement and their power and keys will be effectively wrested and given to those they reviled, with God saying "amen" to their priesthood as they attempt to unjustly say amen to the priesthood of His friends. </div><div><br></div><div>Do you know?</div><div>That the bells toll for you?</div><div>Do you know? </div><div>That His heart is broken for you? </div><div><br></div><div>At 12:01 a.m. On Thursday March 6, 2015, I Jonathan Durfee was excommunicated from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, after a 3 1/2 hour discussion on the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the Lords will that they excommunicate me, as that was in His heart all along. </div><div><br></div><div>For some reason this had to be given to the high counsel, the seventies and the quorum of twelve for casting me into a pit without water:</div><div><br></div><div>20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.</div><div>Alma 13:20</div><div><br></div><div>44 O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood. </div><div>45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, 2 Nephi 9)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-29696741773383729222015-02-25T08:10:00.001-08:002015-02-25T08:10:06.236-08:00Stake President called me today<div><br></div><div>February 19, 2012</div><div>President Barker called me and said, "so we left it with some texts you sent me, do you still feel the same way as you did in the texts?"</div><div><br></div><div>I said, "well yes. You've put me a a tight spot. You have forced me to choose between The Lord who is telling me not only am I authorized, but that I am required to perform ordinances, because that's how we get the Power of Godliness, which is necessary to see His face and live. So I wish you wouldn't do this, but if I have to choose, I choose to do what God is asking me, because that's how I get salvation! If you're asking me to choose between salvation and submitting to "the current church doctrine, then I choose salvation."</div><div><br></div><div>President Barker:</div><div>"Well then we are going to have to convene a court for you. We can't do this as a family so this will be for you only. The Bishop will be doing this for Kari if she still believes the same way you do. Does she?"</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: "yes, she does"</div><div><br></div><div>President Barker: "well he will call her in then. You can testify if you want and Kari can come if she wants, and she can testify if she wants, but no kids under 18... I don't think we will allow any kids under 18. You can also call others to come in and testify if you want too. We'll try to keep it simple though. So I was thinking May 5th, will that work for you?"</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: "that's in 2 1/2 months! Why would we wait so long? Honestly, I have no idea where I'll be in 2 1/2 months!"</div><div><br></div><div>President: "no, in two weeks"</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: "oh so like, March 5th?"</div><div><br></div><div>President: "yes. We also need to deliver a letter, do you still live with the (blanks)?</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: "no we moved. Were in transition right now, so we really don't have a place...we're staying with some friends who took us in. But I was going to come to church on Sunday, so..."</div><div><br></div><div>President: "oh that's perfect! We can do it at church! It's no big deal, we'll just give you a letter, and it's confidential and won't be a big deal. Now, you're welcome at church, but you know you are not welcome to speak about your beliefs or how you think, right?"</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: "yeah I get it. I told the Bishop that's why I don't go to priesthood meeting and Sunday school, because I don't want to alarm anyone or cause them unease or for them to have "bad feelings" or anything while they're at church."</div><div><br></div><div>President: "ok! Great! So, we'll see you then!" Thanks! </div><div><br></div><div>Jonny: uh, ok uh, thank you?</div><div><br></div><div>End telephone call </div><div><br></div><div>So this last Sunday was the day. I found it odd that they might choose to deliver the letter announcing my execution date in the meeting house but President Barker said it was "no big deal", so it must not mean anything. What's the "big deal"? </div><div><br></div><div>As we got there we realized it was ward conference; the sustaining of the officers would be taking place. I sat on the middle isle seat midway to the back and raised my arm in dissent. I felt a tremendous sadness as a witness against this departure from The Lord, the doctrine of Christ, and following scripture. It was not pleasant but although our hearts were heavy, our spirits were light. </div><div><br></div><div>The stake president approached us after the meeting with a brother Garn in tow. He looked at me, but could not meet my intense look of sorrow and compassion, and he averted his eyes from mine. </div><div><br></div><div>He spoke to my wife and daughter for a few minutes and asked if they believed as I did. They responded that they did. He told them the bishop would be contacting them to hold their courts. </div><div><br></div><div>He turned back to me, mumbled and hesitated, taking the letter out once or twice and then sliding it back into his pocket as if trying to decide how to proceed. He said, "we could go into the hall..." As he looked around nervously to see who was watching, then he said, "oh, it's no big deal, here you are", and he handed me the letter. </div><div><br></div><div>I said, "you don't have to do this", but he just looked away, and said, "I'll see you on March 5th at 7:30". He thanked us and they walked away. </div><div><br></div><div>I said under my breath, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". </div><div><br></div><div>As we walked out of the building, the thought came to my mind with clarity, "so did they to Zacharias in the holy place". The account of Zacharias being murdered by the altar came to my mind, and I realized we had stood in the chapel near an altar where the emblems of our Lords body and blood were blessed, and where an offering to God is made.</div><div><br></div><div>49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:</div><div><br></div><div>50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;</div><div><br></div><div>51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.</div><div><br></div><div>52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.</div><div>Luke 11:49-52</div><div><br></div><div>As this thought came to my mind I repeated aloud:</div><div><br></div><div> "So did they to Zacharias in the holy place", and I walked out the doors of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-88708876535476523682015-02-05T12:22:00.001-08:002015-02-05T12:22:38.340-08:00Texts<div><br></div><div>Following our meeting with our stake presidency my wife and I determined that we needed to make a statement of how we were proceeding in our worship, so I sent the following text to my Bishop and Stake President:</div><div><br></div><div>"Prez Barker and Bishop Walch, this is Jon Durfee and family. You told us to stop doing ordinances or all who are baptized members would be ex'ed. We as a family intend to continue to follow the doctrine of Christ as found in the scriptures including the ordinances that we may obtain the power to see His face and live. (D&C 84). If you must take action: "That thou doest, do quickly"."</div><div>Jonny</div><div><br></div><div>This is the reply from the stake president:</div><div><br></div><div>"Doesn't read like a removal letter! . I did get some guidance from Salt Lake about children. The thought there was a that it did not make sense to have disciplinary Council for them. It seems like we could handle those as informal probation matters, taking away any recommends for the 12 year old and ups might have and restricting use of the priesthood. If they want to request a name removal as to the children, they can do that. That was the thought from the staff person in Salt Lake.</div><div>I will be visiting with Elder Greer and Elder Corbridge this week. Until then , other than having to address the removal letter from the (name withheld), let's just stand still.</div><div>You are doing a terrific job!" President Barker</div><div><br></div><div>Are you confused? So was I! Was he really praising me for "doing a good job"? What's this about a removal letter? Was he expecting me to submit one? And what's this about "guidance from Salt Lake"? I thought these excommunications were only from the local stakes and were local matters!? Are the leaders in Salt Lake lying to the public on this policy? If it's local, and not central, why would he need "guidance" from the higher ups? He is "standing still" until he "visits with elder's Greer and Corbridge (later) this week? If he stands still until he receives instruction on how to proceed, who is really responsible for any and all action taken against me and my family?</div><div><br></div><div>It's like he was talking to someone else! Then came the next text:</div><div><br></div><div>"The message I sent was intended only for Bishop Walch. If it also went to the Durfee's, as it now occurs to me it may have, that was not intended. It should be returned." President Barker</div><div><br></div><div>Oh. Ok. I'll just return a text message? How do you do that? Too late! The damage is done! Apparently at least three quorums are involved in our excommunication! Incredible!</div><div><br></div><div>Here is my reply:</div><div><br></div><div>"Thanks President. You're doing a bang up job yourself. My text was not meant as a removal letter. I have no intention of leaving the church. It is MY church as much as yours or the prophets. Have you ever noticed it's called the:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Church of Jesus Christ. It's His, and </div><div>2. Of Latter Day Saints. It's His and the Saints. I'm a Latter Day Saint. You may remove my name from the corporate church but I will always be a saint as long as I am Christ's. You can't ever remove that as you are not involved in that relationship. That's between Christ and me. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for letting me know you are receiving instruction from above in direct violation of church public and official policy. This is a local matter and you do have the right "equal in authority to the twelve". You can choose, but it looks as though you've abdicated your responsibility. Apparently this isn't your choice though, as it appears to be in the hands of the 70's. I wonder who may be instructing them? God bless you for your kindness. Please allow me to worship according to my own conscience and worship in private."</div><div><br></div><div>He replied:</div><div><br></div><div>"Brother Durfee, thank you for your note back. Again, I apologize that that text went to you.that was an error. I was not aware you had my number and thought the text had been forwarded from Bishop Walch and I was replying to him. As I also mentioned before, I am very happy to meet with you again in person if you would like. Just let me know." Sincerely, President Barker</div><div><br></div><div>The reason he didn't think I had his number was I asked for it and he refused to give it to me. I got the number from someone else and texted him and the bishop, the first text quoted above. Because he was denying me direct access to him he assumed the bishop had forwarded him my text and he replied. The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed! Had he not abused me by denying me his number he would never have been so careless with his response.</div><div><br></div><div>I replied:</div><div><br></div><div>"If you believe we need to speak that's fine with me. That's up to you. I love discussing the gospel of Christ. The question is will you listen? I don't feel like you are listening to me or my concerns. You have some standard that I do not see in scripture. You use a different standard of a handbook written by men. The scripture is clear: follow only Christ. "Do as I do" He says. I have done as He did. I have done so in private as I do not think I have the right to tell the leaders how to run things. They have the keys and sit in the seats of Joseph. I do not question the right of these men or the church. But I do believe I have the right to pursue God privately and still maintain my rights to GODS temple if I am worthy, which I am. Please, I will accept censure if I'm out of line with scripture, but let me worship at least as Alma, Joseph and all the prophets and people of God have. The only way I can obtain the power of godliness according to D&C 84 is to perform unchanged ordinances. I understand the church does not seek this. I respect theirs and your right to not do so. I do not preach against them or their doctrine. I just seek the face of God as commanded. Thanks for whatever you decide. Your decision either way is met with love and non judgement. I do not judge you or any who may vote to cast out. I forgive you, for you know not what you do. God Bless you!!!" (D&C 84:19-27)</div><div><br></div><div>Jonny</div><div><br></div><div>He replied: </div><div><br></div><div>Brother John, thanks for your note. I will get back with you as I would like to visit again. Next Sunday is likely the best day. I will text with a time. Sincerely, President Barker </div><div><br></div><div>I replied:</div><div><br></div><div>"Some evening this week would work for me. What is it we are going to visit about? If you are going to restore my full rights then I'd like that. If it's more about "current doctrine" from the handbook in direct conflict to the scriptures it's not going to be helpful to either one of us. You believe God has given His authority to men, passing priesthood from one man to another, (which Nephi condemns, 2Nephi 28:5). I believe one must be "called of God", directly by those who are in authority or in other words His own voice. (Gen 14, JST) "that it may be conferred upon us it is true" by other men, that is simply an invitation to go to God with confidence. Joseph taught, "All the prophets received the priesthood directly from God." But again, I don't believe I have the right to tell the leaders how to go about their job. They sit in the seats of authority. I do not question that. My conclusions are not about judging the church or men, it's about pursuing God privately as scripture directs. I sustain Prez. Monson in his calling. I sustain you. But when you seek to control, compel or dominate me, by using church discipline as a weapon to get me "in line with current doctrine", or deny me access to God by denying my right to do ordinances, then amen to your authority as it pertains to my private devotions and reaching out to God. </div><div><br></div><div>Jonny</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-6289105062298226592015-02-05T12:15:00.001-08:002015-02-05T12:15:13.115-08:00Testifying of Christ<div>Many have asked regarding President Monsons talk on Christ. Here is a post by Denver Snuffer regarding this talk. I was going to parse it and comment, but I think Denver's words from The Lord say it better than I could. Enjoy!</div><div>Saturday, October 2, 2010</div><div>3 Nephi 12: 2</div><div> </div><div>"And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins." </div><div> </div><div>Some people are given knowledge. (D&C 46: 13.) This would include the Prophet Joseph Smith. Others believe on their words and trust in Christ through what they have learned from witnesses of Him. (D&C 46: 14.) This would include President Thomas S. Monson, who in last General Conference testified he has no question about the testimonies of those who have seen Him. As President Monson testified: "I have read—and I believe—the testimonies of those who experienced the grief of Christ’s Crucifixion and the joy of His Resurrection. I have read—and I believe—the testimonies of those in the New World who were visited by the same risen Lord. I believe the testimony of one who, in this dispensation, spoke with the Father and the Son in a grove now called sacred and who gave his life, sealing that testimony with his blood. Declared he: 'And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father.' The darkness of death can always be dispelled by the light of revealed truth. 'I am the resurrection, and the life,' spoke the Master. 'Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.' Over the years I have heard and read testimonies too numerous to count, shared with me by individuals who testify of the reality of the Resurrection and who have received, in their hours of greatest need, the peace and comfort promised by the Savior." (He is Risen!, Sunday Morning Session, April, 2010 Session; footnotes omitted.) </div><div> </div><div>Why would someone be "more blessed" because they "believe in the words" of those who have "seen Christ" than those who have seen Him? What is it about believing on the words of those who have seen which is "more blessed" than the ones who see Him?</div><div> </div><div>Notice once again the connection between having seen the Lord and "ye know that I am." Notice the use of "I am" in the statement of the Lord about Himself.</div><div> </div><div>Now note too how the "believing in the words" is not enough, because He adds action to the belief. That is, those who "believe in your words" are required then to "come down into the depths of humility and be baptized" for the "blessing" to have any effect. It is not enough for someone to be moved to believe when they hear a witness of Christ, they must also respond to His invitation to be baptized. Before being baptized they need also to "come down into the depths of humility." The intention and inner meaning are everything. But the outward act confirms the inner change which takes place.</div><div> </div><div>Action is married to belief and intent. Both are necessary.</div><div> </div><div>When it is done in faith, sincerity, complying with the steps the Lord has prescribed, He promises to visit the obedient "with fire and with the Holy Ghost." This is how a person will know they have received "a remission of their sins."</div><div> </div><div>The instructions of the Lord are intended to change lives. Change is repentance. And repentance leads to redemption. He expects our behavior to mirror our beliefs, because if behavior does not model our professed beliefs then we are hypocrites - not converts.</div><div><br></div><div>This is why commandments are given to us. They tell us how we can continue to receive and renew a continuing conversion to Christ's way of life. Commandments are not a burden to bear but a roadmap to follow. They are not a measuring stick to judge and then abuse others. It is a light for us to follow.</div><div><br></div><div>These explanations by Christ are beyond the question of "faith verses works" because Christ is telling us we act from our heart in faith, receive ordinances because of our faith, then have our hearts filled again. We proceed from grace to grace. This is how Christ received the fullness, and the only way we may receive the fullness. (D&C 93: 12-14, 19-29.)</div><div> </div><div>The task of knowing God always begins by trusting on the words of those who have seen Him. But it should never end there. Everyone is invited to lay aside their sins, call upon God in faith, obey His commandments, listen to the voice of inspiration and do as you are told, thereby coming to see Him face-to-face. (D&C 93: 1.) This is the reason for the book The Second Comforter. It is a manual for how any person can come back into the presence of the Lord and join those witnesses who can testify they have seen Him.</div><div> </div><div>He lives. And He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-3521025260640858322015-02-04T08:55:00.001-08:002015-02-04T08:55:39.279-08:00"Getting to know you": What to expect when called in by the stake<div>The following is an interview between my wife and I and our seven children in the stake high council room. The premise of the meeting was to "get to know you". After some preliminary small talk it went something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, that’s great. That’s wonderful. Well, Jon and Kari, Brother and Sister Durfee, we’re happy to do this as a family, or however you’d like to do this. We wanted to go over a few church things…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: With your parents.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: They’re privy to pretty much everything. So, there shouldn’t be any suprises.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Okay, alright. Well, that sounds great. Well, talk to us! A little bit about your faith, and talk to us about Joseph Smith, and then talk to us about President Monson. Just give us some thoughts.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well. Do you want me to talk?</div><div> </div><div>Kari: Sure!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Or do you want to go?</div><div> </div><div>Kari: Go ahead.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, we believe in Joseph Smith. He is the Lord’s mouthpiece, for sure. The Lord spoke to him, the Lord appeared to him. D&C 128 says that the church is true because the voice of God, and the voice of Michael, and the voice of Raphael, and the voice of Gabriel had been heard from the beginning of the church until that time. So, you know, he spoke with these beings. He spoke with Adam and with Enoch, and Gabriel, who was Noah, as you guys know. So he was singular, you know? He had a direct connection to heaven; the heavens were opened to him. I believe that and I know it. And I don’t mean by knowing, that I just really, really believe it cause it sounds like a good story. It’s because I’ve had the same vision. The heavens have opened to me, and though I might be persecuted for saying so, I have had a vision and I have seen the Lord. That’s my testimony. I know the Lord lives because I’ve seen Him. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet because he’s spoken to me. President Monson?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yeah!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: President Monson’s great. I love him. He’s a great man. I think that he’s the President of the Church and I think he’s doing a bang-up job, he’s doing a great job.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Let me ask you a question. Have you got your scriptures there?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Would you turn to D&C Section 107:32-3. Actually, let’s just focus on 32. Let’s talk about that one. Oh, it’s 33 and 34 actually. Do you want to read that for us?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: “The twelve are a traveling presiding high council to officiate in the name of the Lord under the direction of the presidency of the church, agreeable to the institution of heaven to build up the church and regulate all the affairs of the same, in all the nations, first unto the Gentiles, and secondly unto the Jews.”</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Okay, what do you understand that to be, in terms of the ordinances that we participate in, in the Church? Or that anybody who belongs to the Church might participate in? Does it say how they should be performed and who would direct, who would perform those ordinances?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I don’t see the word ordinances in there.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Okay, well let’s say, ‘regulat[ing] all the affairs’ of the church, what does that mean to you?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, first of all, the first, the only man who was ever called the Prophet was Joseph Smith, up until David O. McKay in the 1950’s. Brigham Young refused the title Prophet, and he insisted on being called the President. All the other Presidents took the same thing. When President McKay was forced to take that title, he was embarrassed, at first, and refused to take it, and insisted on people calling him the President of the Church. So, I take that to mean that they are to officiate in the affairs of the church, which they do a great job at. They buy land, they build buildings, they, you know, they officiate over the temporal affairs of the church, which is also scriptural. So, that’s their job. It’s to officiate, right?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Let me unwind you for just a minute, there. It says to ‘regulate all the affairs of the [church]’.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Mmhm! Sure!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: So, that doesn’t mean, like, baptism? You don’t think that means baptism.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, I think that Christ has an obligation and a ministry on the earth that is separate from the Church. So, for instance, Article of Faith 6 says that we believe in the organization of the church in the New Testament times, right? This was quoted to me, (by the bishop) that [this] means we have apostles and prophets, right? So, I believe in that, too! So, in the New Testament times, there was a man called of God. He was called directly by God, by the voice of God from heaven, as Genesis 14 declares that all priesthood is supposed to come. That man’s name is Paul. He was not voted in by the quorum of the Twelve, by Peter, James and John. They actually voted in a separate man. Paul was called directly by the Lord. Peter, James and John did not get jealous of Paul, they did not censure him, they did not kick him out of their church, they did not excommunicate him, or call him and say, [slaps palm on scripture] ‘we have the authority!’ They said, why don’t you write the New Testament Paul? Paul is responsible for almost two-thirds of the New Testament. So, all I want, honestly, is to worship God in private. I’ve never once preached that the Church doesn’t have authority. I believe the Church has all the public authority to officiate in all of the Church’s ordinances. I would submit to you President, I don’t do the Church’s ordinances. I baptize, by having the authority of Christ, by his own voice from heaven to me. I don’t use the words that the church uses, I don’t say ‘having been commissioned’. I have not been commissioned, I have been given authority from Christ, see the difference? And I don’t baptize to a church. I don’t belong to any other church but the LDS Church, and I desire to remain a member of that Church. And I believe that I can coexist, if you’ll let me. And I’m asking you to let me worship in private. I’m not advertising, I’m not speaking evil of you, or the prophet or anyone else. I’m simply pursuing God according to the dictates of my own conscience, as Article of Faith 11 says. Which, if you read the history, Joseph said that [Article of faith 11] in reference to a man being excommunicated because he had a different point of view. Joseph said: I don’t like that. I don’t like a man being called up; it sounds too much like the Methodists. Mormonism doesn’t have creeds that a man must believe or else he’ll be kicked out. Instead, he reinstated the man. So, I believe, you asked me about Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith saw angels. Joseph Smith talked with God. Joseph Smith got power directly from God. Genesis 14 of the Joseph Smith Translation says that priesthood comes “not by man, nor by the will of man,” not by woman, but by God directly from heaven, see? So, I don’t fight against the Church, I never have. But I do believe that God can, and will, and does [minister to man outside some "authorized channel"]. Another example is Moses. Did you know Moses didn’t come through the line of the Israelites? He was a Midianite, right? He was ordained under the hand of his father-in-law Jethro. So, you want to tell me, President, that God has done his work and that he doesn’t speak to men any longer?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: No, no, no. Please, please stop.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: …[you want to tell me] he can’t come and speak to men outside the Church authority? I disagree. That’s where I disagree, that’s all.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: Well, according to our Bishop.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah, that’s what our Bishop said. Hey, I don’t have authority to officiate in God’s ordinances.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You don’t.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Why would you say that when God says I do?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You remember that verse we just read?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Ok, well, the authorized construction of that verse is that only those that have authority to baptize, from the priesthood that was restored by John the Baptist, or Peter, James and John or Joseph Smith, must receive that authorization through the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as exists today.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, what about Paul and Moses? What about them?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: I’m talking about today.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: What about Alma?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: I’m talking about today.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, let me understand this.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yes.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: You’re saying that today, we’re going to go away from the scriptural model, and you’re going to enforce a rule of the Church Handbook, which is not scriptural, which I don’t have access to, which I don’t know what it says. But I do know that… You know what the iron rod is? In Lehi’s dream?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Do you know what I’ve covenanted to obey, President? No, I’m upset!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Please…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Do you know what I’ve covenanted to obey in the temple? The Law of the Gospel! And they hold up this book. [holds up quad] You’re asking me to abandon and go against the covenants I’ve made to God in his Holy temple. I’ve not covenanted to obey the Handbook, and I’ve not covenanted to obey a verse that doesn’t say anything about ordinances. Furthermore, the history of this verse actually shows that the Quorum of the Twelve is able to preside wherever there is no stake of Zion organized. That’s the complete version of that verse. So, the traveling High Council, or the Twelve, officiated wherever there weren’t stakes. That’s why Joseph Smith officiated in the High Council, not in the Quorum of the Twelve. And all the members of the First Presidency were always called, not from the Quorum of the Twelve, but from outside it. So, it’s a completely different organization. And that’s why I say, why? I’m not trying to get a following…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s fine.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: …or have a church.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s fine.</div><div> </div><div>I’m just simply blessing the sacrament in my home!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s, that’s fine, Jon. You’ve been given the priesthood…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …by those who were ordained through a line that goes through John the Baptist, Peter, James and John giving it to Joseph Smith. Those authorized to determine who can exercise that priesthood.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Where is that in scripture? that someone can limit...</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, it’s right there. ‘All the affairs of the church.’ That means everything, particularly the ordinances are regulated by the person that…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, why did we do baptisms clear up until 1950, why did we do rebaptisms? And now you’re saying I can’t? Because to me, that sounds like a policy change; and that’s what the Lord told me: </div><div><br></div><div>"That’s not even my word Jon, that’s a policy change. Are you going to obey me or men?"</div><div><br></div><div> It’s a choice between God and the arm of flesh. And all I want to do is officiate in private, and you can do all the public officiating you want.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: And, Jon, you can do all the private officiating that you choose to do, but not under the authority that was given you through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Perfect! I don’t then! I got my authority directly from Jesus. He’s come to me and given me that authority. I don’t use the Church’s priesthood. Perfect!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, and that’s fine. If you persist in that path…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, no! I’m not using your priesthood!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, if you persist in teaching that, as a doctrine…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I’m not teaching that! I’m acting in it.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You’re teaching it right here. [gestures to everyone, especially kids]</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I have the right to officiate and preside in my home.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You’re teaching it to your children…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely! I’m commanded to, by scripture, to teach the law of the gospel as contained in the scriptures! You open scriptures. Let’s open some scriptures because the rest of the scriptures, preach the doctrine of Christ!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Please, go ahead. We’ve got to leave by 9:30, but please take as much time as you’d like. But, before you do, let me just tell you that the doctrine that you’re teaching is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has let go of the iron rod. Is that what you’re telling me?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: No, Jon. I’m saying that the doctrine you’re following is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Amen! </div><div><br></div><div>And that’s sad. Because it’s not the doctrine of Christ. He actually says, repent, be baptized in the name of Christ, partake of the sacrament [with] wine and bread; any more or less than this cometh of evil. What you’re telling me is that you’re making some policy up that changes from prophet to prophet. So, which one led me astray? David O. McKay, when he said it was fine to get rebaptized? You see the problem? Joseph Smith got rebaptized several times. Brigham Young was rebaptized.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, can I stop you for a minute?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure! I just don’t understand how I’m differing in doctrine in scriptures.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You are. You are.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: If you ask the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints whether a person should be rebaptized, what would they tell you?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Uh, probably no.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Not probably.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok, no!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Absolutely no!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, that’s a policy, because until 1950 we did it! So, you see the difference? Doctrine doesn’t change! Joseph institutes it, tell me which prophet has the right…[to change what Joseph had revealed to him by God?]</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Do you believe in polygamy?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely not!</div><div><br></div><div>[this made me laugh! My perverse sense of humor almost said, "no, but would you like to meet my other wives and question them?" But I really don't, so that would have confused him and the issue]. </div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Alright, ok! In any event, Jon, that is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that there be rebaptism.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, I mean, I’m officiating in that…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: So, you shouldn’t teach that!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I don’t teach it, that’s the Church’s doctrine!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, have you baptized your children?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Ok, ok. That’s teaching it.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, I can teach it in my own family? Or no?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: In order to remain a member..</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, you’re micromanaging, then…</div><div> </div><div>Valarie: Let me testify, then.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Please, please. We asked to speak with your parents. You’re welcome to listen.</div><div> </div><div>Valarie: Ok…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Let her talk! Let her talk! </div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Brother, brother Jon…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No! Let her talk!!!</div><div><br></div><div>[prez slumps into his chair silenced by the force of the Spirit of God]</div><div> </div><div>Valarie: You brought up a thing, and it’s not fair to speak a thing in my presence [and let it stand] when I know it’s false [and can rebut it]. He [pointing to me] offered something, only by preaching out of the scripture. He did not say, I will do this for you. He did not say, I am going out and doing it. I didn’t know he was doing it until I realized, by him bringing up scripture: O my gosh, Jesus commands me to be baptized. The only reason he gave it, was because God gave authority, and I asked. The only reason. So, don’t pin that on him, that’s all I’m saying.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Thank you for letting her speak.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Sure. Well, Jon. We’re going to go ahead and proceed. We’ll confer before we do so.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Alright.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: But, apparently, this is what you believe and it’s what you’ve been taught, and you’re going to go with what you’ve been teaching. Is that what you’re going to continue to teach to your children?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah! And just so I, just for the record, I do believe that it is a private matter and I’m not trying to take it public, I’m not trying to… I don’t use the Church’s words, I don’t use the Church’s implements, like I don’t use the same thing the Church uses.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: I understand that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, our view is outside of that.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Then you should not have any difficulty with having…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, it’s a separate ordinance!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …your relationship to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints severed, it sounds like.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, why would you want to do that to me, when I…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Because, it’s called apostasy.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, apostasy is when you leave the truth, and the scriptures are telling me… I want to ask you something.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Please.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Can you quote a scripture that says: Repent, and rely on your baptism from 20 years ago? It’s all present tense, President. All of it! And in Alma 5:62, it says, this is your Book of Mormon, whom the Church website still says is the most correct book on the earth, Alma 5:62 says, the members are commanded to be baptized, and the nonmembers are invited to be baptized. Why would members, who presumably were baptized, be commanded to be baptized? Well, for the same reason Joseph rebaptized people all the time, and so did Brigham Young. Because rebaptism is a fundamental core of the Doctrine of Christ; it’s "Be" baptized. Moroni 8:25 says, the firstfruits of repentance are… baptism! I don’t know about you guys, but I still sin! When I repent, the scripture, the most correct book on earth says, "the firstfruits of repentance are to be baptized!" It doesn’t say, the firstfruits of repentance are think back and remember [your last baptism]. Because, do you know when they started making the sacrament, [all about] ‘renewing your [baptismal] covenants’? If you study it out, it’s in the 1950’s, right when they stopped allowing rebaptisms. So, they changed the doctrine, to cover up the fact that they didn’t want people to do rebaptisms. It’s part of our history. You can pretend it doesn’t exist. We can all say, (in dramatic deep voice) "well, now the new guy…" Long live the King, right? Well, as soon as this king dies, what is the next guy going to say?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Hey, Jon, let me ask you a question.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah. Sure.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: You’re pretty adamant that you’re not teaching this, right?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: And you’re teaching us right now.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, you asked why I’m doing it! So, I feel I’m obligated to tell you, doctrinally.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Right. You don’t do this outside of your family? You don’t teach this to others?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Uh, no, that’s true. People do come to me, but I don’t seek them out.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, you’re teaching them!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, if someone…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Because they’re coming to you…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, see, that’s where I differ. I don’t call it teaching, I call it a discussion on the gospel. They come and tell me stuff that they believe… kind of like you, you meet with your friend about your car. So, my whole life is the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I don’t actively seek to recruit people, proselyte people; I don’t go out and try to convince them to my way. If someone comes and says, Jon, what do you believe about the doctrine of Christ? I’ll open up 2 Nephi 31-2, I’ll open up 3 Nephi 18 and I’ll read the scriptures! And I’ll say, well, what do you think? And they’re like, well that sounds like I should be baptized if I want to repent!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: A few more questions. You’re baptizing other people besides your family?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: When asked, yeah.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: When asked? How many? Just out of curiousity.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: A lot. I’ve been doing this since 2012.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Since 2012.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: And up until then, you were fine with most of the doctrine, following the prophet of the Church?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I still follow the prophet.</div><div><br></div><div>(As an aside, I do understand the difference between receiving prophets and following them. But I was interrupted and we never got back to it. This is one of the many ways I failed in this interview as I should have clarified what I meant and not let this statement stand.)</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Ok, well you followed him. You kind of made it sound like: "President Monson, good guy up there." But do you believe that he has authority from God, just like you claim to have?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah, yeah!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: You think he does as well?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, I’ll quote you his words.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: No, I just want a yes or no answer.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, no! I want to quote you his words, because it’s important. In the April 2010 General Conference, in his talk, you can look it up, he says: </div><div><br></div><div>My testimony of Christ is based on the eye-witness accounts of others who have seen him. </div><div><br></div><div>I don’t believe President Monson would lie. I actually believe he’s trustworthy. When he testifies, over the pulpit in General Conference, that his testimony of Jesus is based on the eye-witness accounts of others, I believe him. So, no! I don’t think he’s talked to Jesus! Because he told me he didn’t!</div><div><br></div><div>Pres. Ogden: Never! He’s never…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: He said his witness of Christ was based on the eye-witness accounts of others. That’s recent!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, you don’t believe he’s a prophet of God similar to how you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You believe he is…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Hold on! You believe he is the President of the Church and he has the right to take care of all the temporal affairs of the church: buy land, church buildings. But as far as speaking with the Lord, being a prophet just like Joseph was… Because I believe he was a prophet just like Joseph was. He is a prophet just like Joseph was. I believe he has the authority to do so, and he holds the priesthood keys.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah. Yeah.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: But you don’t believe that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: That’s not true. I believe he can, but when he testifies… see, it’s an obligation, a scriptural edict, that when any leader of the Church has seen God, or had a revelation, that they state so. So, when he states exactly opposite, in public, over the pulpit, I just believe him. I’m not disbelieving that he doesn’t. What I’m saying is, he’s never told me that he has. So, where has he said, ‘I’ve received prophesy’? He never has; I’ve searched! And searched! And searched!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Ok, Kari, do your beliefs differ at all from your husbands? Or…</div><div> </div><div>Kari: No.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, just so I’m clear on your feelings about President Monson, I’ve never heard him talk about rebaptism.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Ok, so, you think he’s gone astray on that?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, I don’t judge him on that at all.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, do you think that Church Doctrine… Because the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it exists today, does not teach rebaptism.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, I would ask, where’s the scriptural proof of that?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, let’s just assume…</div><div> </div><div>Kari: And I would say that they need to repent and follow the scripture!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Look, we’re under condemnation.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: We’re under condemnation!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Do you believe that President Benson was a prophet?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yeah, yeah I do.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: We’re not taking this seriously!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: We’re under condemnation because we refuse to abide the precepts of the most correct book.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: We’re trying to remove that from us. If the church wants to, [do something else] that’s fine. Individually, I get to do it. I can’t control the Church, but I can control what happens now, and I’m going to follow this [gestures to Book of Mormon].</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: And you… Your whole family has the right to believe how you want to.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah, thank you.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Obviously, all of us do. Doesn’t mean we have to agree on it.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Right, exactly. And I’m ok with that.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: You’re a little forceful! You’re a little, you’re a little argumentative in here.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I’m feeling a little bit… [under attack] because I just [got called] in to the Bishop’s office two days ago out of the blue, this is all in violation of Doctrine and Covenants, which requires that I have two witnesses against me. I’ve never seen the witness, never spoken to the witness.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, there’s three of us right here.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: It’s actually a conflict of interest for the leaders to be the witnesses. There’s supposed to be a witness. Who told on us? Some guy, I know who he is...but that man should stand up and come and say, this is what, [and] this and that. But I’m not going to hide, so I just told the Bishop everything.</div><div><br></div><div>Pres. Ogden: Out of curiosity, in the Pioneer Ward, you feel, according to your visitation, how many visitations from the Lord have you had?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Oh… I don’t know, I haven’t counted.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, more than one.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Right, as Joseph says in Doctrine & Covenants 130: 3, the Lord says that…</div><div> </div><div>Kari: You don’t want to hear the scriptures do you?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Really?!</div><div> </div><div>Kari: Really!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: … the Second Comforter, the Lord will appear… It’s D&C 130:3, it says, the Lord will come from time to time and abide with thee.</div><div><br></div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, the Lord has told you that you’ve been given authority by the Lord?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: To perform the ordinances?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah, But not to fight against the Church! He expressly forbid me from that! He said, don’t…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Sure, sure. So, your sacrament is different from the sacrament…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Absolutely. The words are different, and the implements used are different. So that’s why I would suggest…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, out of curiosity, I was happy to see you guys at sacrament today, why, why are you…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Because, I’ve been Mormon all my life. Hopefully, I’ll remain a Mormon all my life. I want to be Mormon, and so I sustain President Monson.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Not as a prophet.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No! I do sustain him as a prophet! That’s the name of his office.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: No, you said president.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: But, let me just ask you…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Let me, let me clarify real quick and then you should tell me--So, if a Bishop calls a Gospel Doctrine teacher, and they suck, right? I still raise my hand and sustain them as a teacher. But that doesn’t mean they're actually a good teacher. So, a seer… so, like in the Book of Mormon, when they bring the Jaredite plates to king Benjamin, who translates them? King Benjamin!</div><div><br></div><div>[I was cut off here. The thought continuing is: when they have ancient records now do they bring them to President Monson as the "seer" or the "translator", to translate as in the Book of Mormon, or do they send them down to the scholars at the universities? His office may be called "prophet, seer and revelator" but does he exhibit the gifts?]</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Do you believe that President Monson speaks with the Lord just as you say you do?</div><div><br></div><div>Jon: I hope so, but I don’t know because he hasn’t told me. See the difference? He hasn’t told me that he has like Joseph did. Joseph would say, 'thus saith the Lord.'</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, every prophet that we consider a prophet after Joseph Smith, you don’t necessarily consider a prophet unless you read that he’s said it…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, that’s what we forget in our short minds because our history…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: That’s a yes?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well yes! But it’s clear and it’s based on history. See, we have a short memory and we think every prophet between Joseph and David O. McKay… we didn’t call prophet, we called them President. So, that didn’t happen in our lifetime, so we forget that. And so now today we want to place this man between us and God. I submit the number one reason for apostasy from Christ is: that the prophet can’t lead us astray. He’s not infallible. Every other dispensation, a man could lead people astray, but suddenly in ours, we have this man who’s infallible and can’t. I don’t believe that. I don’t think he is leading us astray. I’m saying the possibility exists that he could.</div><div> </div><div>[here is another failing of mine, when I said, "I don't think he is leading us astray". By the church handbook of instructions own policies, the church or President Monson or whoever is in charge, IS leading us astray because they deny us unchanged ordinances and then forbid and try to force us not to perform them privately, thereby denying members the possibility of receiving the power of Godliness which is what we require to behold the face of God and live as per D&C 84. I should have clarified.]</div><div><br></div><div>Pres. Barker: But isn’t he leading us astray on rebaptism in your view? Just like your wife told…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No. Because, I’m free to pursue God according to the dictates of my conscience in private. It’s a private matter, which I’m asking you to just let me go my way in peace.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: If President Monson came out next General Conference and said, I am a prophet, I speak with the Lord regularly just as Joseph did, what would be your remarks there?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I would like that actually. I would be…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Would you consider him… so, based on that, he’s a prophet because he has stated he has spoken with the Lord? Cause that’s kind of what you hinged it on.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, Revelations 19: 10 says, the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus, meaning Jesus has testified to you of your standing, he’s given you calling and election, or he’s stating he’s testified to the Father. So, that’s the sacrament prayer, right? That Christ is going to witness to the Father of our unworthiness or worthiness. That’s why it’s so critical we’re worthy before we partake. If the firstfruits of repentance is baptism, then it’s probably a good idea, if you want to be clean or worthy before you take the sacrament, to get baptized first. See the progression?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Do you consider yourself a prophet?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: That you’ve spoken with the Lord more times than you can count?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, if you define it that way. But I don’t claim such, I just want to be clear: I don’t claim such, to be like--be your leader.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Do the kids? Do you see your Dad as a prophet? Someone who has spoken with the Lord multiple times?</div><div> </div><div>Valarie: I don’t know. That's his standing. I think all we can know is our own standing and let others pursue, trust they are…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Right.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah, I’m not trying to be the boss of my family either, I guess, really.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: So, if someone says, wow, you have spoken with the Lord face to face, he’s given you authority for these ordinances; Jon, are you a prophet? Your response is: yes or no.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I’d say no. I would say, he can give you the same thing if you fast and pray and go to him. Coming unto Christ means he’ll come to you, and that you can. It’s available for all. President Monson, all of you guys, me; it’s not exclusive to me. I claim no special privileges. I don’t think it’s any different from what we talk about as priesthood in the church, except that in the scriptures, there’s always an organization [which gives] from man to man, and then, like Moses, the Lord shows up. Enoch, the Lord shows up. Joseph, the Lord shows up. All throughout scripture, Jacob, Nephi, all of them! Almost every single man in the Book of Mormon has this priesthood given by men, and then God shows up after. And so, I look at the invitation of the Church as an invitation to receive priesthood and then I have to go to God to sanction it in order for me to have real priesthood power. And so I don’t believe that gives me any right to take authority from the Church. I delineate between authority to officiate… tell you guys what to do; I don’t have any right to go into my Bishop and say, you know what? God spoke to me and you… No! That’s… see, I get that, but in my private worship, I believe God can give me authority to officiate in ordinances that are salvific. And that’s the only reason I’m doing this: because I believe it’s saving. It is salvific to do the doctrine of Christ which is baptism and the sacrament.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Turley: That’s such a great contradiction, though, between your personal beliefs and what the church, you know, is teaching. Why would you want to stay in an organization that you feel is so contradictory to you what you believe personally? If the leaders are off…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Yeah. It’s a good question.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Turley: …then why are you still following, coming to and following the Bishop when he presides over different meetings? Why?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Because in the early days of the church they didn’t conflate the issues. Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society, your minds are darkened because you’re relying too much on the prophet. So, he was pushing people away from reliance on him. He was asking them to go get their own witness. So, I don’t see it as contradictory. The only faults I see in the presiding men of the church, the only value I see in that, (finding fault) is to help me understand that the Holy One of Israel is the one who is the Keeper of the Gate, that Christ is the One that Saves. Outside of that, of course they’re making mistakes! Of course they’re doing bone-headed things. Joseph did bone-headed things, right? His banks failed, he declared bankruptcy. I mean, you can look at the history, and Joseph was this mess up. And yet today we claim they can’t mess up and it doesn’t make sense to me. So, I can see they’re messing up in the business side of things, and it doesn’t bother me, because I’m not looking to them for salvation. So, to me, the Church is the--it’s God’s Church, not President Monson’s. I’ve sworn allegiance to Him, I’ve covenanted with God, I’ve covenanted to obey the scriptures, I’ve covenanted to hold fast to the iron rod, which Nephi says is the word of God. I can’t get that from a man. I have to get it from God. That’s what the scriptures continually tell me. Nephi, Alma, they all go to the Lord. So, I don’t see it as a contradiction at all. I love these men, I really do. I’ve grown up with them. I’m just not looking to them for salvation, because I recognize salvation comes from the one man who can give it: they Way, the Truth, and the Life; "I am the Holy One of Israel." (He says). This is all in our scriptures. So, I just want to, honestly, if you guys hadn’t been told by some guy that I was doing this, I would have continued for years, hopefully decades, until I died doing this in private. I wouldn’t have caused trouble, I wouldn’t have railed or fought. I still won’t! If you guys even, whatever, get mad and feel like you have to put your thumb on me, which I think is unnecessary. I’m begging you to just not.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, let me tell you what our standard is.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: If you teach as church doctrine…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I don’t.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, aren’t you teaching that, as you just expressed, rebaptism is what the church doctrine…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No! I’m teaching that the scriptures teach that. The Church is teaching something different. I’m in line with the scriptures, but I don’t claim the right to tell them what to do, so I just let them go.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: See the difference?</div><div> </div><div>Jon: But go ahead and do the Church thing...</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: Every question, though, I’ve asked you, you’ve taught. But you say you don’t teach! I don’t understand.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, would you rather me say, yes, no, and not teach you the doctrine that you seem to be either ignoring, ignorant of, or you’re choosing rebelliously against God to ignore, because I’m reading to you right from the truest book on the planet, and you’re saying, "well, that’s not our current doctrine." That’s offensive to me, and so I’m asking you let me just go away.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We can’t, Jon.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Because you’re an ordained Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you persist in this way of thinking, we’ll need to hold a disciplinary council where excommunication will be considered.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, that’s your choice and I would beg you not to do it. I don’t want to leave the church. I don’t want to fight against the church, I never have. I want it on the record that I’m only following Christ. I believe there’s a difference between public and private; you’re a judge, you know that. There’s a difference, there’s a big difference. I’ve stayed in honor with the Church by not speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed. I’ve stayed in honor by not publicly going out and trying to do this. I’ve stayed in honor by keeping this as private as possible. And I think that you guys have the authority to just go, "well as long as you keep it private, go ahead; we’ll just do our public thing."</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We don’t have that authority.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, the scriptures actually say that the Stake High Council is equal in authority to the twelve. Brigham Young changed that and conflated it to make the Twelve apostles have authority to tell you what to do. So, do you not think you have authority to just let me go?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We don’t; absolutely not.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Why not?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Because we need to follow… because that verse I read to you in D&C 107: 34 says that, the First Presidency and the quorum of the Twelve regulate all the affairs of the church, and that includes the ordinances, and you are participating…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Can’t you see I’m operating outside of the Church’s ordinances?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Not while you hold the Melchizedek Priesthood.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, I actually hold the priesthood after the order of the Son, if you would like to know.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, you were… I’m not going to argue with you. I’m just going to let…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: No, I’m not arguing; I’m just clarifying what priesthood I hold, actually. And I would like to let you guys know that Doctrine & Covenants 121 says that "the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the powers of heaven." (Repeated again slowly and with emphasis) "The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the powers of heaven." INSEPARABLY! You can’t separate the priesthood from the Powers of Heaven. I have a connection with the Powers of Heaven. My priesthood will not end with a Church court, although you may think it does. It only allows the Lord to judge you by the standard you’re judging me with, and I’m begging you to give me mercy, so he can be merciful to you!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We appreciate that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Honestly!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We appreciate that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I really do...</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: I understand that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: …want mercy for you!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Thank you. Thank you.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: I’m asking for that, for me so that I can just…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, we need to proceed as I’ve outlined. Kari, the same would be true in this for you. We’d be happy to meet. We’d like to meet separately with each of you, if you would be willing to do that.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: That’s up to Kari.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: For… what? Separately for what?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, just to communicate. Just so we get… this is a serious matter and…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: [whispered] Divide and conquer.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …we would not do this in front of your children. You… it’s a separate…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: They actually requested to be excommunicated with us. I’m going to allow them to speak for themselves, but if they want...</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: And they will have that opportunity. They will each have that opportunity to do so. It will be a separate proceedings and…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Is there any way to do it as a family?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: No, there is not. There is not. But those proceedings can be arranged for those… who’s been baptized? By… let me phrase it this way, Who’s been baptized by someone in the, under the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Not, rebaptism. Who’s been baptized?</div><div> </div><div>[Valarie (19), Walker (17), Angela (15), Sterling (13), Natalie (12), raise hands.]</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Ok, each of you, absolutely, will have to… you know, the Bishop will visit with you, and if this is what you believe, then, yes, the Bishop will have to go ahead and if that’s what you believe and you want to continue believing that, then you would not be able to remain a member in good standing in the Church.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: And just so my kids know, and you all know, they are free to choose for themselves and they are not compelled by me, in any way. So, I just… I want them to know. I just want to testify to them. Please take his counsel seriously and do…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: … are willing to allow… certainly, you’re the parents and… well, if you’re over 18, so we typically do that for everybody under 18… we wouldn’t meet with any of your children without your permission.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Sure. And they’re free to make their own choice. So, if they stay a member, and that’s what they want, that’s fine with me. I would actually encourage it, actually. I would encourage my children to remain members.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, they wouldn’t be able to do that and accept rebaptism and…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Exactly.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …participate in any of the sacraments that you’re offering.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: So, they would not be able to remain members.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yeah, just so it’s clear. Do you kids understand that?</div><div> </div><div>[multiple affirmations from the kids]</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: You can’t go and… I know it’s what your Dad believes and I know he believes it with all his heart, but it’s not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</div><div> </div><div>[multiple affirmations from the kids]</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: So, you would have to choose. Well, we’ll have the opportunity to confer and then we’ll… we can either speak on the phone, we have to do these things in writing to be in compliance with what we need to do. And they are separate from what the disciplinary councils are. I typically separate for each person, now. But the kids will, if they want to do that, I, we’ll get permission, because if they’d like you to be there I…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, is it different from stake to stake? Because I’ve read several stories where they excommunicated husband and wife, sometimes without even notifying the wife that she was on trial, but they just ex-ed her anyways.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: No, we would not. This would be, this would be separate meetings.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: And I’ve heard of children being at the same proceedings, so, that’s why I assumed it would be possible to do it together; it’s cause I’ve actually read accounts where it happened that way.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, that’s not… that may be right but that’s not my understanding of how it works.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: We would, we will confer, we’ll make sure we do it in a proper way and then we’ll…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, will there be two witnesses that are called against me? Outside, that are…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: There likely will not be witnesses different than those that…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Alright. And the Doctrine and Covenants says that it shall be tried on the scriptures? And it’s not according to the handbook? D&C actually has that verb-age, that the trial shall be done… Is it by the scriptures or by the handbook?</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: What we’ll follow is the doctrine of the Church…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, the Handbook.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is clearly based upon the scriptures.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, there’s glaring differences.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Jon, that’s your…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, I’d like to see the witnesses and have them be able to face me.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Absolutely. Any evidences presented against you, you will be there for.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, there will be an accuser outside of my own leaders? Or…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: No, it may not be anybody different than us or your Bishop.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: You guys have a bias then, it’s not a fair trial.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: And you’re welcome to, if we’re not authorized to do it that way, we won’t; if we are, we will. And you’re welcome to appeal.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Alright. Yeah, I’ve been reading about it today and there are scriptures that say it should be done according to the scriptures, and I read the account, the handbook version, and it’s different, so…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, we will follow what the current doctrine is of the Church…</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, the handbook then. Ok!</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: …of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That’s what we will do.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, I object to that and…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s fine!</div><div> </div><div>Jon: …I do not consent to being tried according to a Handbook, which I don’t have access to, and I’m not sure what it says exactly. I would implore you to please use the scriptures as written. Joseph was revealed to, directly from God, on how to proceed in these matters.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s why, it’s completely your choice to the extent that you participate or choose not to participate.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, scripturally I would have to be there, but ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: It’s whatever you choose to do. Kari, same for you. And then, they’re likely to be held, because Jon’s a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, we go ahead, that will be held in a Stake setting; because you’re not a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, that will be held in the Bishopric for you to do it and if the children choose to go that route. So that’s how that works.</div><div> </div><div>Kari: Well, thanks for telling me how it works.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Ogden: I think it’s helpful.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yeah, and we’re happy to, if that’s the decision, very happy to meet, and confer and go over how we’ll proceed.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, my decision is not to be excommunicated, my decision is to be…</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s not a choice you have.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Um, ok.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: That’s what… That’s the…</div><div> </div><div>Kari: That’s the decision he’s made. (Pointing to President Barker)</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yeah, right. Yeah. Your choice is whether to persist in your teaching.</div><div> </div><div>Jon: Well, actually it’s to obey the covenants that I’ve made in the temple.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Yes, I understand that. (As an aside, it's incredible to me he just said he understands he would be asking me to break my temple covenants, but he's going to anyway!)</div><div> </div><div>Jon: So, if you’re asking me to stop that, I would be breaking temple covenants. And honestly? I’d rather let you revile me and blasphemy against me than to break my covenants with God. So, I just wish you wouldn’t do that kind of stuff. Kind of sucks for you. I think it’s time to go.</div><div> </div><div>Pres. Barker: Well, we love you guys. You look like a great group, and I can tell there’s some good people over here. And you’ve got parents that love you and care about you and that’s obvious to me. Why don’t we have a word of prayer? President Turley, would you offer that? Thank you so much!</div><div><br></div><div>(At this point we all laughed out loud at the preposterousness of the moment, where they are telling us with a smile they love us while they murder us. (Spiritually, at least to their understanding). Paul Toscano's remark came to my mind and made me laugh. He commented about his experience: "it was like being raped by the Care Bears". Yep. We're going to do this to you but we will smile and tell you we love you while we do it, so it's ok. Relax and enjoy it, we love you! This was the first time I had ever spoken to the Stake president and one of his counselors, and had met the other only one time briefly.)</div><div><br></div><div>This ended the interview. They told us that they would be filing the paperwork and we would be noticed when the trial was to be held. They also assured us repeatedly that we didn't need to show up to the trial. </div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com11tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-70996651667526677532015-01-29T18:17:00.001-08:002015-01-29T18:17:59.192-08:00Miracles<div>For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--</div><div>And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.</div><div>And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.</div><div>2 Nephi 28:3-6</div><div><br></div><div>The mainstream interpretation of this scripture makes it difficult to identify these last days church's that are "built up, and not unto The Lord."</div><div><br></div><div>As LDS we read this and excuse ourselves and cast the blame on every religion but the one for whom the warning is written for: the LDS church. Who is being warned? Why would Nephi warn churches who will never read the book? Just so we can point the finger of accusation and pat ourselves on the back? </div><div><br></div><div>This post will deal primarily with verse 6 and the idea of miracles, to see if we can get a better understanding of that term so that we can see if we are guilty as charged by Nephi, or if we can just go on singing "all is well, all is well". </div><div><br></div><div>The primary question is does our church say:</div><div>"Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work."</div><div><br></div><div>Let's break it down:</div><div>1. Behold, hearken ye unto my precept;</div><div>2. if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; </div><div>(The "they" in this line is unnamed, it appears it is some unnamed persons who come among the church and "say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of The Lord". Why would someone come and tell the church that The Lord has performed a miracle, and why would the leaders of these false churches tell its people to "believe it not? Hopefully this will become clear as we move forward. </div><div>3. for this day he is not a God of miracles; </div><div>4. he hath done his work.</div><div><br></div><div>These are all interrelated, with the primary assertion that these last days churches built up to get gain will tell the people to hearken unto their precept. This is fulfilled by our church in so many ways, but the easy one, is that we follow "current doctrine" out of a handbook, instead of the pure gospel and doctrine of Christ as found in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on the earth, which Joseph remarked, that a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book. </div><div><br></div><div>Miracles. Our church believes in miracles, I can hear them say, "We have miracles all the time!" And in a way I agree. Miracles happen. The question is, how does the most correct book define and describe miracles? Does it describe miracles simply as miraculous events, or something else? Before we turn to the Book of. Mormon, Let's look at an interesting and perhaps confusing quote by Jesus:</div><div><br></div><div>22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?</div><div>23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.</div><div>Matthew 7:22-23</div><div><br></div><div>Wow! People come to The Lord who have worked miracles in His name, why would God profess to not "know them" and command them to depart? Is it because these people were really wicked people and they somehow faked some miracles or perhaps stole Gods power. Growing up in the church this was how I understood other church's healing's to be be judged by God at the last day. Sure they performed miracles but they did so illegitimately, but in the end God will show them we had the priesthood and they did not, and he will cast them off. </div><div><br></div><div>Let's assume we know nothing about the New Testament and the miracles Jesus performed in those accounts. If we could get that out of our minds for a few minutes and we take a look at this "most correct book", maybe we can find a new idea about "miracles". Maybe The Lord is telling us that for a miracle to be counted as qualifying of The Lord approval, it is a different kind of miracle than we typically think of. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is Ammon speaking to the King:</div><div>13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.</div><div><br></div><div>14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.</div><div><br></div><div>15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.</div><div><br></div><div>16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.</div><div><br></div><div>(As an aside, this power of God's is His. No man can possess it, own it or have a monopoly on its distribution. We can have power given us to use, but it's God's Power and it is therefore it is through an association with the Powers of Heaven or God that man is given power. It is not something man just has by virtue of having priesthood confirmed upon us by other men. And there is not some guarantee a man will always have it. It is perishable because this priesthood is from God. He still ministers to those of sound mind and it is those to whom. He grants holiness and power.)</div><div><br></div><div>But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.</div><div>Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work MIGHTY MIRACLES therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings.</div><div>O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!</div><div>Mosiah 8:13-20</div><div><br></div><div>According to this passage, miracles are "unfolding mysteries" through the "marvelous works" which he then equates with seeking wisdom and not only seeking her, but allowing her to rule over them!! This then is a different "miracle" or work indeed. </div><div><br></div><div>Also miracles are:</div><div>--things which are past, </div><div>--and also of things which are to come</div><div>--by them shall all things be revealed</div><div>--shall secret things be made manifest</div><div>--hidden things shall come to light</div><div>--things which are not known shall be made known by them</div><div>--things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No "healing". No raising the dead. These miracles seem to have another function outside the physical realm in which we find ourselves. These miracles are all about having knowledge and things revealed to us, so that we can see and hear and understand, and then God is hoping, we will act. Why "works"? Why The reference to Wisdom? Who is she? Would it be a miracle in our day, in the LDS church to find her and have her rule over us? Hmm... A miracle indeed. </div><div><br></div><div>6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them--yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.</div><div>Alma 23:6</div><div><br></div><div>Here the miracle is receiving knowledge, by "God working miracles IN them, and this is then compared to being "converted unto The Lord." How does working miracles "in" them, receiving knowledge of things past present and future, and being converted unto The Lord relate? Why is that a miracle? Who is involved and directly responsible? Is this something another man can give you? Is this miracle related to having God perform or press something "in" your flesh like the Brother of Jared account?</div><div><br></div><div>12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.</div><div><br></div><div>Why does Ammon "do" all things? What does that mean? Is that a miracle? Is Ammon's example here, exactly how someone gets power from God? By humility. and not claiming to be great, but praising God? </div><div><br></div><div>13 Behold, how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell; and they are brought to sing redeeming love, and this because of the power of his word which is in us, therefore have we not great reason to rejoice?</div><div><br></div><div>14 Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell.</div><div><br></div><div>15 Yea, they were encircled about with everlasting darkness and destruction; but behold, he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love; yea, and we have been instruments in his hands of doing this great and marvelous work.</div><div><br></div><div>16 Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy, and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel.</div><div>Alma 26:12-16</div><div><br></div><div>Here we come to the whole purpose and divine law of miracles and what purpose they serve in Gods great plan. </div><div><br></div><div>--"he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; </div><div>--and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love"</div><div>--"how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell;"</div><div>--"and they are brought to sing redeeming love"</div><div>--"and this because of the power of his word which is in us"</div><div><br></div><div>The great miracle here is salvation. Salvation that comes from the divine light of Gods very Person and Presence. "Being brought into His everlasting light is to be brought into Gods very Presence; to see Him face to face! Encircled in His arms! Can you imagine? Loosed from the pains of hell! Singing redeeming love! Having the Power of His Word "in" us. Here we have this idea of "in" idea again. What is happening here?</div><div><br></div><div>What do we do with instruments? We perform them. How can we allow God to "perform" with, in and through us? Like Ammon said, "we have been instruments in his hands of doing this great and marvelous work."</div><div><br></div><div>What did Ammon do? I mean I can hear your doubts already: "I don't think that all that actually means to see God face to face. We don't need to do that until the next life!"</div><div><br></div><div>Let's look at the account to see exactly what Ammon did:</div><div><br></div><div>6 Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he knew that the dark veil of unbelief was being cast away from his mind, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness--yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God--</div><div>Alma 19:6</div><div><br></div><div>This is the same language of light, even marvelous light of His goodness infusing Lamoni's soul with joy. What does that look like? How do I get some of that? Why light? Is this a sparkly shiny manifestation? Or is this light and truth, or in other words, knowledge being given Lamoni? Or as mentioned earlier, is this knowledge of mysteries, past present and future?</div><div><br></div><div>Joseph said, "A man cannot be saved in ignorance", and "a man is saved no faster than he can get knowledge". It's not just a sparkly experience. It is light, it is truth, it is knowledge that is conveyed to the mind of Lamoni here. The content matters! What the spirit is saying to you is one way how you know whether the message is true or whether you are being deceived. Lamoni gets filled with saving knowledge and that infuses his soul with joy! </div><div><br></div><div>"And it came to pass that he arose, according to the words of Ammon; and as he arose, he stretched forth his hand unto the woman, and said: Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou. For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name. Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit. ,</div><div>Alma 19:12-13</div><div><br></div><div>"I have seen my Redeemer"</div><div><br></div><div>This is face to face. This is the light of Gods countenance shining upon Lamoni and his house and redeeming them all from the fall. Ammon introduced them to these things and they found salvation in his message by receiving the message and then doing what Ammon invited them to do, and that is ride the chariot up the fiery conduit into the Presence of God! Here is another example of the definition of salvation in the most correct book. This is the "precept" of the book which is required of us to perform or abide by in order to remove the condemnation. And we just aren't good enough. But it is a come as you are party, and if you'll come to Him He will clean you up. And if you keep returning He will, grace for grace, bring you along to where and what you need to be. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[The Queen] arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people! And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; </div><div>Alma 19:29-30</div><div><br></div><div>This is what those who have this experience do: they sing the song of redeeming love! Can you feel to sing this song? If you have in the past, can you feel to do so now? Is this a one off event?</div><div><br></div><div>34 And behold, many did declare unto the people that they had seen angels and had conversed with them; and thus they had told them things of God, and of his righteousness.</div><div>Alma 19:34</div><div><br></div><div>These are the things you are going to have to encounter and become one with if you want to get closer to God. Adam waits for "messengers from Father", because that ministry by holy beings is necessary to give you the knowledge you need. </div><div><br></div><div>Let's go to the lords ministry in Bountiful:</div><div><br></div><div>25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.</div><div>3 Nephi 19:25</div><div><br></div><div>30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.</div><div>3 Nephi 19:30</div><div><br></div><div>32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.</div><div><br></div><div>33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.</div><div><br></div><div>34 Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be uttered by man.</div><div><br></div><div>35 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracles, because of their unbelief.</div><div><br></div><div>36 Verily I say unto you, there are none of them that have seen so great things as ye have seen; neither have they heard so great things as ye have heard.</div><div>3 Nephi 19:31-36</div><div><br></div><div>Here again we have the same language as Ammon and King Lamoni. And we have even more clarification, because Jesus a smiles upon them and they become white as He is white! </div><div><br></div><div>Christ could not show those in Jerusalem the miracles He showed the Nephites! What miracles? Because He showed the Jews healing and raising dead etc. Right? So what miracles does Christ lament he could not show the. Jews? Yes, He could not show them the saving miracles. The "Mighty" miracles. These words mean things. They are things. And there is a big difference between healing someone who is sick and redeeming them from the fall. Even non-Christians heal people! And surely Christians, including the Mormons heal by faith. This miracle though is one only heavenly beings and The Lord are able to perform! </div><div><br></div><div>Let's take a look at the three disciples miracles:</div><div><br></div><div>5 And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men; and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in the name of Jesus.</div><div>4 Nephi 1:5</div><div><br></div><div>Finally! Some real New Testament "Jesus miracles"! Or are they?</div><div><br></div><div>Heal the sick</div><div>Blind to see</div><div>Deaf to hear</div><div>"Dead" to rise</div><div><br></div><div>These are the same things which Lamoni and his household, the Nephites with Christ, and all who receive this kind of salvation receive. Are we not all sick, blind, deaf and dead? I hope that these miracles are both temporal and spiritual, but I desire the spiritual more than the physical. Mankind has power given them to exercise faith to physically heal and even raise people from the dead. And many of those that do these kinds of miracles are going to be denied entrance by the Holy One of Israel who is the gatekeeper. Remember the scripture of Christ that He will command them who do these miracles to depart! Why? Is it because the miracles that those who know Him will perform are of a spiritual and saving nature? What is Gods work and glory? Yes, to bring men to pass Immortality and Eternal Life! So wouldn't His Mighty Miracles also do the same?</div><div><br></div><div>Let's return to the record to see if these healing's of sick, deaf, blind and dead are miraculous healing's or something else. </div><div><br></div><div>13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, (these are the three who tarried, the same referenced in the above scripture about healing) and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.</div><div><br></div><div>14 And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.</div><div><br></div><div>15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."</div><div>Mormon 1:13-15. </div><div><br></div><div>Verse 15 clarifies that the three disciples healing of blind, deaf and sick was spiritual in nature. For they come and minister to Mormon and he "tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus." He too entered the Divine Presence and was redeemed from the fall thereby. And all this in the context of despite the three being taken and no more miracles being wrought, they still came to Mormon and he still was redeemed!!</div><div><br></div><div>15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.</div><div><br></div><div>Have all the Powers of Heaven "passed"? Are They no longer? The answer is a resounding, "NAY!" For God has not ceased to be a God of miracles. What miracle? God has not ceased bringing men into His Presence to redeem them! He continues still! Will you behold The Lord?</div><div><br></div><div>18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.</div><div><br></div><div>19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.</div><div><br></div><div>20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.</div><div><br></div><div>God will come to you. He has not ceased to perform this miracle of salvation and redemption! If so, it is because of our own unbelief or false notions of who God is. It is because we seek for the miracles that will get us cast off, and all the while we ignore His miraculous work and a wonder! It truly is miracle to save even one of us. </div><div><br></div><div>And how does it begin? We see how to begin a few verses later: </div><div><br></div><div>23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;</div><div><br></div><div>24 And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;</div><div><br></div><div>25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.</div><div><br></div><div>26 And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord? Who can deny his sayings? Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord? Who will despise the works of the Lord? Who will despise the children of Christ? Behold, all ye who are despisers of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish.</div><div><br></div><div>27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.</div><div><br></div><div>28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.</div><div><br></div><div>29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.</div><div>Mormon 9:15-29 </div><div><br></div><div>Miracles. The doctrine of Christ. Tied together. It is one work compounded in one and God is going to fulfill His word and His work. The question is, will you get out of bed with the whore? Will you arise and leave your false religious beliefs and false beliefs of God behind? Ask Jesus for whatsoever "things" ye lack yet. Ask with faith, not to consume it on your lusts, not to be able to tell some sycophant a fascinating experience or manifestation. Don't do that! Get The Lord to press into your own hand 20 stones. Do that! Look at the following verses after Christ commands those who perform certain miracles but "knew Him not":</div><div><br></div><div>"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:</div><div>And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."</div><div>Matthew 7:24-25</div><div><br></div><div>Founded on a rock. 16 stones taken up to the mountain... And the wise man builds his house upon a rock! Coincidence?</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, here is how Christ can minister and perform His great miracle:</div><div><br></div><div>And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.</div><div>And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.</div><div>Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.</div><div>And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men--</div><div>Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.</div><div><br></div><div>"after working many mighty miracles among the children of men"</div><div>Hopefully you have a better understanding of this phrase. For while He certainly performed healing's and raising the dead, these were signs and symbols of His real miracle: the atonement and doing all He did and still does for the redemption of mankind. His ministry and miracles continue still will you be a partaker?</div><div><br></div><div>Here is Christ about His thoughts on those who would deny Him His personal, face to face ministry among mankind:</div><div><br></div><div>6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!</div><div><br></div><div>7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!</div><div>3 Nephi 29:6-7</div><div><br></div><div>To all those who deny Christ can or must needs come minister to us in the flesh, Yes, now, To you, To me, In the flesh, Face to face. To all those who say we don't need to see Christ in this life. We just need ordinances in the temple and odds are we'll be exalted. To all those who preach a gospel of procrastination and hesitate or delay your repentance for another day because some leader hasn't told you this is important, and that you should or need to do it, or because you doubt or fear or just don't know where to start, or you claim, "God doesn't speak to me". Yea, Wo unto all who shall say that there can be no miracle wrought by Christ, even the miracle of Him coming and redeeming you from the fall because you also know these things and can stand in His Presence while in the flesh; while in this mortality. Wo unto to you shepherds for going not in and hindering those who would enter in! </div><div><br></div><div>God is not dead, nor does He sleep! The bells toll for the dead prophets and heaven weeps and the devil laughs, because so many fall for the sophistry and misdirection. He is not done with His work! He has not given His power to men. He is a God of miracles and I know that because I know how much of a miracle it is for Him to save me. Only He can do it. He is personally involved in doing so. That's the only way. Don't allow some precept of men and the churches they've built up, to replace your relationship meant to be between you and God directly. His arms are extended still. Will he deny Him further?</div><div><br></div><div>"Repent, and come unto me", saith The Lord. </div><div><br></div><div>For if you'll repent, the miracle He will perform will include: </div><div><br></div><div>--unfolding mysteries" through the "marvelous works"</div><div>--seeking wisdom and not only seeking her, but allowing her to rule over you. This </div><div>We shall see and know:</div><div>--things which are past, </div><div>--and also of things which are to come</div><div>--by them shall all things be revealed</div><div>--shall secret things be made manifest</div><div>--hidden things shall come to light</div><div>--things which are not known shall be made known by them</div><div>--things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.</div><div>And</div><div>-- receive knowledge</div><div>--have God working miracles IN you </div><div>--be "converted unto The Lord</div><div>--in his strength do all things</div><div>--be brought into his everlasting light</div><div>--into everlasting salvation</div><div>--be encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love</div><div>--be loosed from the pains of hell</div><div>--be brought to sing redeeming love</div><div>--receive the power of his word which is in us</div><div>--have the dark veil of unbelief cast away from your mind</div><div>-- have the light, light up your mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness</div><div>--yea, have this light infuse such joy into your soul</div><div>--have the cloud of darkness having been dispelled</div><div>--have the light of everlasting life lit up in your soul</div><div>--to be overcome in your natural frame</div><div>--to be carried away in God--</div><div>-- to see angels and converse with them; </div><div>-- be told them things of God, and of his righteousness by these angels</div><div>-- to have Jesus bless you as you pray unto him</div><div>-- to have his countenance smile upon you </div><div>--have the light of his countenance shine upon you </div><div>--to be as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus, even a whiteness that does exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there is nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof</div><div>--Heal the sick in you </div><div>--make the Blind in you to see</div><div>-- and the Deaf in you to hear</div><div>-- and the "Dead" in you to rise, be a flame on earth again</div><div>-- to have Him smile upon you again</div><div>-- to be white again, even as Jesus.</div><div>-- to have Christ pray words that tongue cannot speak, neither can be written by man the words</div><div>-- to hear and bear record; and have your heart open and understand in your heart the words spoken by Him</div><div>-- to be shown greater miracles</div><div>-- to see so great things and to hear so great things </div><div>--to taste and know of the goodness of Jesus </div><div>--speak with new tongues</div><div>-- to take up serpents</div><div>-- to drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt you </div><div>--they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;</div><div>-- to be counted as one who shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.</div><div>-- to have the rain descend, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon your house; and have it fall not: for it is founded upon a rock</div><div>--to be able to declare:</div><div>"I have seen my Redeemer!"</div><div><br></div><div>Now that would be a miracle indeed!!</div><div><br></div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-1677214287911826912015-01-26T10:28:00.001-08:002015-01-26T10:28:50.707-08:00Bishops "court"<div>January 22, 2015</div><div><br></div><div>The Bishop called again yesterday (the next day after his first call) and set up a meeting for last night at 7:45. Wow! That was quick. So we went. </div><div><br></div><div>He asked me many of the same questions as he had on the phone the day before. </div><div>Bishop: how did you come to the writings of this man Denver Snuffer and when? When did you begin to meet in this group? How often do you meet? Do you partake of the sacrament? </div><div><br></div><div>Me: well, Denver really had nothing to do with my approach to God in the beginning. I came across a talk by one of the a Quorum of the Twelve, Bruce R. Mckonkie, called the 10 blessings of the priesthood. The last three I believe are, to be sealed up unto eternal life, to have ones calling and election made sure, and to approach the throne of grace and see and speak to God face to face. This was a prophet seer and Revelator, remember! Later, I came across Abraham 1:2-4:</div><div><br></div><div>2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.</div><div><br></div><div>3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.</div><div><br></div><div>4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.</div><div>Abraham 1:2-4</div><div><br></div><div>I paraphrased the above scripture, and told the bishopric that I too was a follower of righteousness, and desiring to be a greater follower as Bruce R. had spoken of, and now Abraham was saying the same thing and more, I decided that if God were no respecter of persons, I too might do as James directs (James 1:5) and ask God for greater light and truth concerning the fathers and the rights of the priesthood of the fathers from Adam down. </div><div><br></div><div>I also quoted Ether 3:13:</div><div>Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.</div><div><br></div><div>What is happening here? I asked. How is it that the Brother of Jared is redeemed from to he fall? Well, the scripture is clear, he is redeemed from the fall when he enters into the Presence of Christ! This is the same thing that Bruce R. and Abraham, and Joseph are all telling me! Maybe there is something here I need to pay attention to! </div><div><br></div><div>Then, upon reading the lectures on faith I realized that to obtain these blessings I must sacrifice everything. All I had and all I was and am, I must be willing to offer up. How could I think to be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven with those saints that had offered their all, their lives, their possessions, they were sawn asunder and crucified upside down; how could I think to be comfortable or saved if I had not offered the same offering and sacrifice? </div><div><br></div><div>I mean, what was it Abraham was sacrificing when he took Isaac up the mountain to kill him? Sure it was his son, his birthright son, but Abraham was also offering up the very blessings and covenant that he had just received from God a short time earlier! Abraham was sacrificing his very salvation and exalted promises when he offered up Isaac, because how do you have posterity as the sands of the sea if you murder the only birthright son? So coming upon all of this material in the scriptures, because this was in 2005, and I wouldn't come across the writings if this man Denver Snuffer for another 5-6 YEARS! I didn't read his first book until either late 2010 or 2011. I was lost in all this stuff, all alone until like a ray of light someone showed me Denver's first book, The Second Comforter Conversing with The Lord Through the Veil, and when I got that it was very helpful (huge understatement!) in sorting some things out and correcting some things I was doing that was preventing me from going any higher. </div><div><br></div><div>So I just continued in this space of time before I came across Denver's writings, seeking God. I asked for the same manifestation that Joseph, Nephi, Abraham and Mahonri received, and Bruce R. promised. And I offered up all I had to The Lord. And you know, I don't know if I thought He'd really take it, but I offered it all and He took me up on the offer. At the time I was living in Camelot (that's what I called it) I had a huge house worth $700,000, half paid off, I had all the trappings, I mean I had a boat, and a classic 67 Camaro, a 40' 5th wheel, filled with toys and quads and motorcycles, a cabin on 25 acres, I had standing in the community and in the ward, I was living in Camelot! I was on top of the world. And I offered it all up. And in His Mercy, He took it all, and it was and is all worth it and I'd do it all again to know The Lord, and I do know The Lord, because He has come to me and He has sent His angels, and I too can testify that I KNOW Joseph saw what he saw because I have had my own first vision experience and I have seen and therefore know some things as a result of that. But that doesn't really make me so special as you might think, and I mean that! We all should have a first person witness of what Joseph saw. We all should be witnesses to that, and we all can be. I am no one special and I still suck, but The Lord will talk to you guys if you will make the attempt to get to know him, but you know, if people ask about going on this path, I discourage them from do so, because it will require all of you and once you begin you can't go back, so if you're going to proceed then be ready to go all the way, and you've got to be willing to give up what The Lord requires of you. </div><div><br></div><div>So I've given it all up and I will give whatever The Lord requires, even if you cast people like me away, if I have to choose then I choose The Lord. If Joseph were here today I'm not even sure he would be welcome. Look, you think I'm crazy and hearing voices and talking with God and seeing angels, but isn't that what Joseph did too? Why aren't we seeking that? I remember one story about Joseph getting a fistful size piece of bread and a cup of wine each, and taking the sacrament with some guys and then he laid down on his back and told them to lay their heads on his arms, and they all looked up into Heaven and Joseph called down angels! Who doesn't want that? We should all be doing that. Let's do that together. (I nodded to the bishopric inviting them to partake of the sacrament with me; they just stared at me like I was crazy!) You see, the fruit is the test. How do you know the truth of things unless there is a test?</div><div><br></div><div>When The Lord began to instruct me using the scriptures to be baptized and partake of the sacrament, I resisted. I refused for some time to believe I should proceed and I required more information from Him. I fasted and prayed for months to know His will. I told Him how could I do such things without the key holder? I grew up in the church you know. I knew I wasn't supposed to do such things, heck, they won't even let families do it at family reunions, although they used to, and they used to do sacrament twice on Sundays, so The Lord pointed out it was a policy not HIS doctrine. How could I know I asked? "You have My word before you, will you wrest it to your own destruction?" The Lord has a way with words ya know? </div><div><br></div><div>What would you all do? The Lord asked me, "are you going to obey men or Me?" What would you do? I told The Lord I lacked authority to perform the ordinances, and The Lord, in His own voice declared to me from Heaven giving me authority and Power to baptize and to bless and administer the sacrament.</div><div> (See JST Genesis 14: 28: "It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, NOT BY MAN, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God; </div><div>29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name. JST, Genesis 14:28-29.</div><div><br></div><div> So this cannot be given from one man to another "although it may be conferred upon them it is true", it cannot come and does not come with any power at least, until one hears it from Gods own voice to the individual.</div><div><br></div><div>This is a private worship. This is not public. I have never criticized the church publicly. And if I have taken note of problems in the leadership or institution in private, it is because I believe it useful to see things as they really are so that I don't misplace my trust and begin to believe again that God has given his power to man which the most correct book condemns.</div><div><br></div><div>"5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and HE HATH GIVEN HIS POWER TO MEN"; 2 Nephi 28:5, emphasis mine. </div><div><br></div><div>I do not question your keys and authority, nor do I question the church's. Go your way in peace and exercise your authority, that is a public service and duty and I do not question you or the church in how or what way you perform things, but I'm pleading with you to please leave me alone and let me go my way in peace, and worship God privately according to the dictates of my own conscience. When. Joseph gave that he was referencing action to cast out a man who "erred in doctrine". </div><div><br></div><div>Joseph said, when a brother Brown was being threatened with excommunication for his error in doctrine: </div><div><br></div><div>"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." </div><div><br></div><div>Here Joseph equates being allowed to remain in full fellowship with "being a good man", not according to "erring in doctrine". You can see the similarities with this story and Article of Faith 11:</div><div><br></div><div>"We claim the privilege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege. Let them worship how where or what they may."</div><div><br></div><div>Bishop, you don't have to take any action against me. You don't have to listen to some higher-up telling you you must take action. I am no threat to you or your keys or the church. I am an innocent man and am worthy to hold a temple recommend. Let me worship in private with the authority given me, and I will let you exercise you public keys to the ward. We don't need to be at odds. I don't want to nor have I ever fought the church. I want to be a Mormon and seek the face of God privately. </div><div><br></div><div>We still believe the idea that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book and a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other. Joseph also said the nearer a man is to God, the clearer are his views and perceptions. So if obeying the precepts are what brings me closer to God and being closer to God gives me clarity, then I am going to obey the truest books precepts. </div><div><br></div><div>So after The Lord gave me authority to perform ordinances, The Lord told me to test the fruits of doing them according to Alma 32. (See Alma 32) And what's the test of Alma 32? It's to plant the seed or to do something, and then watch it to see if it grows, or expands the soul, and whatsoever expands the soul is good. So I tried the word of God to see if there was fruit, or if my soul expanded upon performing the ordinances, and I can tell you from first hand experience that my soul has expanded because of my following my Lord and Savior down into the waters of baptism, and then partaking of the sacrament with bread and wine as the scriptures outline with specificity to do. The scriptures say, "by their fruits shall ye know them", and the fruit of following the doctrine of Christ and performing His ordinances as He ordained them and doing them "oft" as He commanded, (see Moroni 6:6) has born wonderful fruit. </div><div><br></div><div>So I ask again, please let me go my way in peace and worship God in a private transaction between myself and The Lord, and I will continuer to not challenge yours or the church's keys and authority to officiate publicly. I do not see these as contradictory. One is public, the other is private. Please have mercy on me and just let me go. I expect you to allow me a temple re come d and full fellowship. I can answer the temple recommend questions with a clear conscience before God. </div><div><br></div><div>So the question is, can the church just let people pursue Christ by following the precepts of the most correct book, or will they cast them all out? I'm willing to see the foibles of men and still sustain them, fulfill callings, pay tithing, and serve when I can within the church. Are men perfect? All would agree no. So why do we expect them to never lead us astray? Of course they could make mistakes, but that doesn't really bother me, because my faith is in Christ, and not men. I can remain faithful to the church, pursue God privately, why can't the church allow this? I am no threat to yours or the church's authority. I have no desire to lead or be promoted up the ladder of leadership. I just want to be a Mormon and pursue God as outlined in the scripture, and since the church is not teaching what the scriptures teach, why are they bothered if I pursue those things privately, in what are for all intents and purposes, different ordinances completely, than what I am offered within the church? I am not complaining they are doing it differently than scripture, but I do claim the right to pursue Him according to scripture even if the church isn't. That does not make me apostate. </div><div><br></div><div>The Bishop then read article of faith 5 and 6 and told me the church believes these are the correct way to see authority. </div><div><br></div><div>I agreed, and mentioned that Paul was called and ordained by God outside the then existing twelve apostles and so if we are following that model, we should expect for apostles to arise directly under Gods hand outside the quorum of twelve today. If you want to follow that model, I completely agree, but you cannot use it to say God can't do his own work, whenever He wants to, with whomever He wants to. </div><div><br></div><div>As for laying in of hands, whose hands? What does it mean to be called of God? Have you been called of God? By prophecy? Who would be more "by those who are in authority" then angels and God Himself? So if you want to say that's the law of the church, I agree, but let's not say "called of God", and then you quote me some man who ordained you with no mention of God or prophecy or laying on of hands by angels like Joseph was. Those are two different things. </div><div><br></div><div>The Bishop said, "I understand what you're saying, but that is not the current doctrine of the church. You must get in alignment with the current doctrine or we will have to escalate action against you." </div><div><br></div><div>I replied, so the current doctrine isn't scriptural? Shouldn't we go by the "most correct book"? </div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: "we don't go by what is in the scriptures, we go by what is in the current doctrine of the church."</div><div><br></div><div>Me: you mean the handbook? Of which I don't have and haven't read? </div><div><br></div><div>Then they invited us out of the room for them to deliberate. This was the first moment we realized we had been on trial the whole time! No one mentioned they were questioning us to make some judgement on us, we had simply been asked in to "talk". </div><div><br></div><div>We returned and they handed down the verdict:</div><div><br></div><div>"Informal probation, no sacrament (private or public), no priesthood functioning (private or public), no speaking up in meetings, and he asked for my temple recommend. </div><div><br></div><div>I said, "I do not consent to giving you my recommend. I am worthy to hold it, correct?" And the Bishop nodded yes. "So I cannot give it to you as you are asking for it unjustly, and I am an innocent man, worthy before God and you to hold it, so I cannot in good conscience give it to you"</div><div><br></div><div>"As to my priesthood, D&C 121 says, 'the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the Powers of Heaven.' As recent as right before this meeting The Lord told me, 'your connection to Heaven will not be affected in this meeting', so you cannot really take away something that you are not involved in anyway. That priesthood I hold is inseparably connected to God, and you are not a party to that, so I will be keeping my priesthood thank you. </div><div><br></div><div>I told you before in our phone conversation and again tonight that I was in a 40 sacrament fast, and to stop would require me to break covenants with God. So if you are requiring me to chose between God and your judgement, then I will follow God. I will abstain in the public meetings as you request, but privately I will continue to do as God directs."</div><div><br></div><div>He replied as to me not giving him my recommend: "this isn't about your worthiness to hold a recommend. It's about you doing things that are not in line with the current church doctrine."</div><div><br></div><div>I said, "you mean the handbook? Because I'm simply following the scriptures, and I have done so while remaining in honor to the church and my covenants therein. This is a private matter between me and God."</div><div><br></div><div>He said, "you must conform to the current church doctrine not what's in the scriptures, or we will escalate this to a disciplinary court, well, that's a negative way to say it, it's really more of a council of love, because we love you to death. We just love your family! (This was the second time I had ever met with him! It was "love feigned", because love never was between us. We simply don't know each other)</div><div><br></div><div>He said they would give me two weeks to think it over and then they wanted to meet again. </div><div><br></div><div>I agreed cheerfully, and said, "we don't need two weeks, I am following The Lord, but anytime you want to talk I'd be happy to do so"</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-6430055910572390822015-01-26T07:55:00.001-08:002015-01-26T07:55:53.110-08:00My Bishop Called...<div>January 20, 2015</div><div><br></div><div>Bishop just called me out of the blue, and asked me:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Are you meeting with people every Tuesday in some sort of group to study?</div><div><br></div><div>Me: "not really. There is no organized meeting or group. I am studying and seeking God all day every day. All I do in any if my spare time, is read and study and discuss Gods word. It is a constant part of my life. So, Yes, people call and ask to come over, and it always turns into a discussion of the gospel of Christ because that's what I'm all about: The Gospel of Christ. It's usually different people and there is no organized meeting or group or even any kind of set time. Many times I end up studying alone or with my family. Sometimes a group of people shows up. Sometimes it's me and one other. So am I meeting with others? Yes. Is it some organized meeting or 'every Tuesday' kind of meeting? No. </div><div><br></div><div>2. Bishop: How often would you say you meet?</div><div><br></div><div>Me: I'm seeking The Lord 24/7. It's an everyday, all the time kind of thing for me. There really isn't a spare moment when I'm not pursuing the gospel, meaning the voice of God and angels speaking to me, and studying the words of Joseph and the scriptures to learn more. I'd say I meet with people 4 or 5 days a week. But like I said, it's not organized. It's just my friends and family talking about the gospel and doctrine of Christ. Is that a problem?</div><div><br></div><div>3. Bishop: Have you ever in the past, or are you currently partaking of the sacrament at any of these meetings, or are you studying the writings of a man named Denver Snuffer?</div><div><br></div><div>Me: "I believe that the church still believes the statement of Joseph Smith, 'that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, and a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book.' Notice this does not say it's the most correct book, therefore we must read it, rather it says we must 'abide by its precepts.' Another statement by Joseph is, 'the nearer a man is to God, the clearer are his perceptions and the greater his understandings'. I take these statements seriously and I have acted in faith to attempt to obtain these blessings. 3 Nephi is clear: we are to follow the doctrine of Christ and to partake of the sacrament 'oft'. The reason to partake oft, is to get closer to God. (See 3 Nephi 18;Moroni 6:6) The reason to get closer to God is to have clearer perceptions. Most of my life I thought the "spirit" was the spirit, and that having it, secured for me clear and correct answers just because I had "the spirit". From Joseph's statement we can see that the "spirit" is completely dependent upon our proximity to God, and not our possession of it as some sort of guarantee. The closer we are, the clearer our views, the farther we are from God then, the cloudier our views. I don't want to be deceived, so I need to be as close to God as possible. So, yes, I take the sacrament oft, as commanded by Jesus Christ in the most correct book on the earth, so that I may be closer to God, so that my perceptions and views may be more clear, so that I can see things as they really are as I work my way back into the Presence of Christ. </div><div><br></div><div>As to Denver Snuffer, yes I read his writings. If you have ever read his writings, you know most of it is quoting scripture, primarily the Book if Mormon. I don't agree with everything he says, but I do know that his writing is filled with light and truth and I have come closer to God by reading his writings and doing as he suggests. But he is only quoting and pointing to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so if you want to criticize him you would also be criticizing Christ's words, Joseph's words as well as Nephi, James, Moroni, Alma and a host of other prophets. Is there a problem with me reading his writings?</div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: "no, no, thank you for being candid and forthright."</div><div><br></div><div>Me: "sure. How else would I be? I have nothing to hide. I am simply following Christ's words in the most correct book, and I expect you to allow me to worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, as article of faith 11 directs. You know, we in the church may hear that and say, 'yeah, worship according to the dictates of your own conscience, but do it outside the Mormon church.' To which I would say, do you know the history of that idea to allow others to worship as they will by Joseph our founding prophet is all about us as Mormons having different doctrinal views? In Kirtland they were going to excommunicate some man and Joseph said they shouldn't be doing that, "that sounded too much like the Methodists", and we should "leave the old man alone". Joseph saw a Mormon church which accepted different views among its members, even saying Mormonism had no creeds. So, I ask you to let me worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, and I will do the same for you. </div><div><br></div><div>I mean, that's why I don't attend all my priesthood and Sunday school classes is because I don't believe I have the right to proselyte and get people all riled up at church. If someone asks me, I will tell them what I believe, but I don't want any trouble with the church and I don't believe everyone must believe as I do, and I don't go around pushing this on others, and in return, I ask to also be left alone to worship God privately and still remain a full member with all my rights. I'm worthy to enter the temple, and so I expect you to allow me to continue to attend. I sustain the prophet, I'm not causing trouble, so please let me be. </div><div><br></div><div>I'm not trying to convince you of my way of thinking Bishop. But I am asking you to let me pursue God as I will and remain a Mormon. The Mormon church is the only church I have ever belonged to and I do not see myself ever belonging to any other earthly church or institution. I know Joseph is a prophet of God. And I don't mean that I just "really really believe" kind of know, what I mean is, I KNOW Joseph is Gods prophet because I too have done as James directs and asked God, and I have had my own first vision experience revealed to me. I know God lives because I have seen Him. The Lord has spoken also to me and I now know for myself that Joseph is who he said he was and more. I speak with God and His angels and so should you. We all should. This is what Mormonism is, or at least it should be. </div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: "I'd like to meet with you soon, would you stop partaking of the sacrament until we can meet together?"</div><div><br></div><div>Me: "bishop, out of respect to you I would normally try to do what you requested of me, but I am currently in the middle of a 40-day sacrament fast, partaking of the sacrament every day for 40 days. Like I said, I need Christ's Spirit to allow my views and perceptions to be clearer, and in obedience to the precepts of the Book of Mormon; the way to do that is by partaking oft as commanded. I would be willing to not facilitate partaking with others in groups until we meet if you like, but I cannot stop partaking personally in private right now or I would be breaking a covenant I have with God. </div><div><br></div><div>Let me be clear: when it comes to determining how I judge what to believe or not believe, and what to do or not do, the scriptures, and specifically the book of Mormon is what I go by. So if it comes down to a person or God then I choose God and the scriptures over the precepts of men, just like the temple tells me to. </div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: how far along are you in this fast? When would you be finished with it? </div><div><br></div><div>Me: I am about in the middle, I have another 20 days or so. </div><div><br></div><div>(The Bishop never responded to my offer to abstain from group partaking, so I have proceeded to continue to meet and partake, as he never said anything else about it, therefore, I offered but he never acknowledged or accepted my offer)</div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: so are there any members of our ward who currently or who have ever in the past met with you or partaken of the sacrament? </div><div><br></div><div>Me: "I just couldn't say"</div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: well, like less than zero or between zero and a hundred?</div><div><br></div><div>Me: "I just couldn't say. You see, that is a private matter between each individual and God. I just couldn't say. If you want to interject yourself between God and someone else then go ahead, but I won't do that, so I just can't say. That is between God and them, and I guess you, if you decide to interject yourself between God and them. </div><div><br></div><div>See, I take this idea of performing ordinances seriously. I don't believe anyone should just run out there and start doing ordinances. I discourage that. I prayed and fasted for months trying to know if I should bless and partake of the sacrament. The Lord kept encouraging me to proceed. I refused to do so until God told me He gave me authority and Power to perform the ordinance by His own voice out of Heaven to me. Once He did that, then I began to partake in private. This is a private matter between God and me. I am answering your questions because you have asked nice, but do not mistake my good manners as that I believe I must answer any of this. I'm answering because you asked nice and I feel ok doing so. So many people came over, especially at first, who did not have authority from God. That is one reason I have met with so many others. Everyone wants a valid ordinance, and I could provide that in the interim. But anyone can get that from God themselves, so I simply helped people on their own path to getting their own witness from God, I can point to scripture, but they need to get it from God themselves. </div><div><br></div><div>Bishop: well thank you again for your forthrightness and I'd like to meet with you soon. </div><div><br></div><div>Me: sure! Anytime. I would love to sit down with you.</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-23241091205293947032014-12-19T18:44:00.001-08:002014-12-19T18:44:46.073-08:00Stray Ordinances<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Doctrine & Covenants 1: 12-17</div><div>12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; </div><div><br></div><div>The Lord is nigh, we better prepare. Prepare for what exactly? Why will preparation be necessary for that which is to come, even The Lord? </div><div><br></div><div>13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. </div><div><br></div><div>Why is the anger of The Lord kindled? Is His "anger" related to Him being "nigh" and us not beholding Him? Why would a loving God's anger be kindled just because He is nigh and we refuse to enter into His Presence? Why would I need to enter His Presence? (See Ether 3:13). I'm not feeling comfortable with this "angry" God. I am getting a dark feeling from these words given us in D&C. </div><div><br></div><div>14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; </div><div><br></div><div>The Arm of The Lord SHALL be revealed. His anger is kindled because of this predicament. He SHALL reveal His Arm, and the only way for mankind to survive that revealing of His Arm is to have already beheld Him, in the flesh, while He was simply "nigh". But we would not!</div><div><br></div><div>14 (continued:) and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; </div><div><br></div><div>More clarity: we must hear His Voice. Either directly from Him to us, or from His servants, and then to give heed to those Voices. Heed meaning we actually act, and do what God and His servants tell us to do. </div><div><br></div><div>Who are the "prophets"? Who are the "servants"? Who are the "Apostles"? Is anyone with a title of Prophet, Apostle or servant automatically who I must give heed to? Are there going to be false prophets or false apostles? If so, how do I know the difference between a true prophet and a false one? </div><div><br></div><div>One test the scriptures give is,</div><div> "By their fruits ye shall know them," Mathew 7:15-16. </div><div>So if thats the test, then the question is, what are "fruits? Fruits could be identified as "good people" or "good behavior". We can look about us and see if people are behaving in a "good fruit" kind of way. But as we all know, we can be deceived by appearances. We all have experienced the seemingly wonderful person who appeared to have good fruit then commit heinous acts. So there must be another way to understand "fruit". I mean Joel Osteen doesn't have poop all over him does he? (Bad Monty Python humor aside). He looks like a guy I could get behind. So we need to know what the fruit is, by which we must judge the matter correctly. </div><div><br></div><div>If the fruit is more than mere appearances, does this passage in D&C itself identify the "fruit" we should use to determine the matter correctly? The next verse gives us a hint of what bad fruit looks like:</div><div><br></div><div>15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; </div><div><br></div><div>Does this identify the fruit? If ordinances being changed is "fruit", can we determine if changes to ordinances are a fact or not? It's interesting that we are given a charge to follow God and or His servants, prophets and apostles, and the next verse speaks of changed ordinances! It's almost as if God could see us, the LDS church and how badly we have changed and mangled the ordinances. </div><div>If we do not use changing the ordinances as the "fruit," would false use of titles, signs, phrases and mirror images of the real thing still possibly deceive even the very elect without a proper and correct understanding of fruit? In other words, if we judge fruit as only behavior we may find ourselves part of a vain, false body of "chosen" people who are being deceived and led astray. </div><div><br></div><div>If we use the measuring stick embedded in Christ's words to Joseph as our guide, we can easily and clearly see if the "prophets" and "apostles" and servants we are giving heed to are the real thing. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is a list of three things the LDS church has changed since Joseph died. </div><div><br></div><div>1. Baptism. Up until the early 1900's we performed baptisms for healing and repentance in the Temples. We no longer are allowed by those holding the keys to the temple to do this. We also no longer follow the doctrine of Christ which establishes how to determine whether to baptize someone or not. If we deny baptism based on tithe paying or swearing fealty to men have we changed the ordinance?</div><div><br></div><div>2. Sacrament. Up until Heber J. Grant (and coincidentally during a time of prohibition on alcohol by our government, which brings up questions on who is in fact making these decisions, the "prophet" or the government?) we used wine for the sacrament. We also took it two times on Sundays, where now we only take it once. We reject Christ's own doctrine and His very words given us in the truest book on earth as outlined in both 2 Nephi 31-32, and 3 Nephi. </div><div><br></div><div>3. Temple ordinances. In 1990 the leadership removed portions of the endowment and changed the ordinance drastically. They did not claim revelation on the matter, rather they explained that they had the keys to make the changes, so they did so. In 1994 more changes were made. </div><div><br></div><div>I give no judgement on these changes, other than to point them out. I sustain the 15 men, and I am a member of the LDS church in good standing. I am not challenging their right to make all these changes. I am simply pointing out that changes to our core ordinances have in fact occurred. Therefore, IF, the fruit to measure a true prophet or apostle is based on whether ordinances have been changed (which is how to judge it according to Christ in this passage), then the everlasting covenant has been broken. </div><div><br></div><div>The next verse also gives some clues to the fruit of true vs. false prophets:</div><div><br></div><div>16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall. </div><div><br></div><div>So if "they seek not The Lord" is bad fruit, what does "seek not The Lord" mean? Does it have anything to do with not "establishing His Righteousness"? And "every man walking in his own way"?</div><div><br></div><div>1. Seek not The Lord to establish His Righteousness. </div><div><br></div><div>Go back to verse 12. Prepare ye for God is nigh. Receive Him now in this life, or when He comes, and He is coming, and if you do not, then His anger is kindled because ye have ever abused His laws. The Lord wants to establish His Righteousness in you. If you comprehend that, then you know some of what God is trying to bring about in your person, so that you can abide the day of His coming when He comes again with Vengeance and Fury to burn the wicked. Seek The Lord with the intention of letting God establish HIS Righteousness in you, rather than you trying to cram God into your tiny New Testament image of God. </div><div><br></div><div>2. Every man Walketh in his own way, after the image of his own God, whose image is in the likeness of the world. </div><div><br></div><div>Does "Walketh in his own way" mean not following another man? Or does it mean to not follow Christ? Can I be following other men and still be walking in my own way after the image of a God, my God, whose image is in the likeness of the world? Is our view of who God is more mainstream Christian now than it was in Joseph's day? Have we changed the basic knowledge and understanding of who God is to fit into and be more like other Christians? Have we distanced ourselves from Joseph's teachings which God vouched for, such as scripture we have removed from our canon, the Lectures on Faith? What is our treatment of the King Follet Sermon? Have we changed basic principles of Gods nature to be popular and more accepted by other Christians? Are we breaking into pieces Babylon or is Babylon breaking us into pieces by our renouncing of our core doctrines? </div><div><br></div><div>President Hinckley denounced the King Follet Sermon as an antiquated "couplet" that "is hardly taught anymore". A committee removed the Lectures on Faith on the 1920's from our scriptures. The Lectures on Faith is described in the Joseph Smith Papers by Joseph Smith, as the "doctrine" of the Doctrine and Covenants. It was voted in as scripture in 1835 by every priesthood body and the general membership. The committee said, "it was not meant as scripture" and took it out. We are left with The book of Covenants, although we pretend we still have the Doctrine and Covenants. We keep the name you see, and that helps us in our apostate status before God to not notice how very far off from the faith Joseph gave us we really are. </div><div><br></div><div>Continuing with D&C:</div><div>17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; (D&C 1)</div><div><br></div><div>What exactly is the "calamity" which should come upon us? What is the topic of this entire passage? That's right! It is to behold the face of God! The calamity is us, mankind, the LDS church included, not entering the Presence of God and being redeemed from the fall. And that redemption does not come from participating in a temple re-enactment or play. It comes in the only way it ever came or comes. That is, as Mohonri is taught in Ether 3, by Christ Himself. </div><div><br></div><div>13 "behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. </div><div>14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. (Book of Mormon, Ether, Ether 3)</div><div><br></div><div>Jesus Christ was prepared from the foundation of the world to bring us each back into his Presence and redeem us from the fall. This is the way. It is the only way. The temple points to this, but is not it. To believe on His name and become His sons and daughters requires us to do as Mohonri, Adam, and his sons, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph of Egypt, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Joseph, Enos, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma and Alma, Ammon, Aaron & buds, Captain Moroni, brothers Nephi and Lehi, Nephi at Christ's coming, Mormon, Moroni, Ether (and a whole bunch of dudes in Ethers book), and Joseph Smith have all done. That is, enter into His Presence and be redeemed from the fall. This life is the time to prepare to meet God! If you wait to experience this until after death it is everlastingly too late ( at least in this round) and you will desire the rocks to fall upon you and hide you from Gods Presence. </div><div><br></div><div>Prepare ye, prepare ye! For The Lord is nigh, even at the doors! Will ye not open up to Him? Come ye out from the world and the vain and foolish worship of your fathers! Let Him kindle a fire in you, now, on the earth, while ye are yet in the flesh, so that He will not kindle a flame upon you at His coming which will burn you up, root and branch! For the Arm of The Lord is revealed, and those who will not hear My Voice in the words of My servant will not abide the day. For the least of them is now among you, and ye know it not, and if ye will hearken unto My Voice, you will hearken unto his words. For his words are My words Thus saith The Lord God Almighty! Prepare ye the Kingdom, that I may come and dwell inside those who will have Me to be their God! Hear ye the Counsel of The Lord! Flee, Flee from the great harlot who sitteth upon the waters that My people may not drink of the waters of Life freely! The day of Salvation is here. I AM Come. </div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-27518818986361633222014-12-02T20:46:00.001-08:002014-12-02T20:46:01.688-08:00Something afoot<div>There is something afoot!</div><div><br></div>18 And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people; (Book of Mormon, Mosiah, Mosiah 15)<div><br></div><div>
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<p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">"now we find ourselves here, in this cycle of creation, and once again the game’s AFOOT.
Once again we are left to choose between good and evil. Once again we are asked to exercise
great faith and to rise up. We are once again in a position in which it is possible to qualify here
and now for what will come after. You have the opportunity before you today. Choose good.
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<p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">At this moment you have the opportunity to exercise exceeding faith. Choose faith.
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<p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">You have the opportunity at this moment, in this dark place where we presently reside, to
be identified by your good works, to become proven to God. Then, for the next cycle of creation,
His foreknowledge of you will include the record of your exceeding faith and good works from
here.
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<p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">Do not think this is a peculiar doctrine. This is part of the Gospel and set out in the
scriptures. Creation is cyclical.
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<p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPS'; font-style: italic">"And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others
would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their
minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren." </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT'">Don't have a hard heart. Don't be blinded by the lies, the half-truths, and the incomplete things
that you are taught by those who are trifling with your souls. You may disagree with me, and you
are entitled to do so, but God cares about your salvation and offers it to you. But you must rise up to become like
Him, and we have no time to idle away with foolish cares. We have no time to waste participating
in false, vain and foolish religion." </span></p><p><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people!!</span></p><p><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">If you are not aware of the work God is doing right now in December 2014 upon the earth, you should look around you. Look to The Lord who is mighty to save. </span></p><p><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">"[F]or ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Cor. 6: 16.) </span></p><p><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue Light', HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God; wherefore, gird up your loins and I will suddenly come to my temple." (D&C 36: 8; see also D&C 133: 2-3, 3 Ne. 24: 1.)</span></p><p><font face="Helvetica Neue Light, HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">How does one get redemption from the fall? Is it by girding up our loins (becoming pure in heart) and then He, God will come to your temple? Is that even possible? Required? Isn't going to the temple enough? Aren't we guaranteed redemption from men? Hasn't God given His Power to men? We do not need to see Christ do we?</span></font></p><p><font face="Helvetica Neue Light, HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">"Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Book of Mormon, Ether 3)</span></font></p><p><font face="Helvetica Neue Light, HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> Behold, the Christ!</span></font></p><p><font face="Helvetica Neue Light, HelveticaNeue-Light, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font></p>
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</div></div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-86867768138042936452014-12-02T20:16:00.001-08:002014-12-02T20:16:08.206-08:00Christ's Church<div>"My Church"</div><div><br></div><div>Who or what is "the Church?"</div><div><br></div><div>D&C 10 says this on the question:</div><div>53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. </div><div><br></div><div>The Lord is making an "if-then" statement here. It is not automatic. Something is required to have Christ's church established among us. Something other than being baptized or joining. That something is to "harden not their hearts". If we desire to belong to His church we must know what The Lord means when He says to "harden not our hearts. So what does it mean to "harden not" your heart?</div><div><br></div><div>54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church; </div><div>55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. </div><div><br></div><div>Don't fear this "if-then" statement. "It's ok", I can almost The Lord say! If you really do belong to "My church", says The Lord, you don't need to be afraid. For those who really do belong to His church, will at some future point, inherent the Kingdom of Heaven. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is some clarity spoken by The Lord: His Church and His Kingdom are not the same thing. Those who conflate the two are trying to keep you from attaining His kingdom, which is the purpose of His church. The one leads to the other. The church is the "means", and the Kingdom is the "ends". To conflate the two is to believe you've already attained something you haven't, and leads to an "all is well in Zion" mentality, which damns any who believe it. You cannot get off your rear-end and move yourself to where you need to be if you already believe you have arrived at your goal. You must first awaken to the reality that you need to enter into another place of residence: the Kingdom of Heaven! And Christ's church is designed to help us inherent Christ's Kingdom. </div><div><br></div><div>56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is more clarity! Who is it that should fear?? Yes, those who break His commandments! What commandments? Here told by Christ, that those who are "building up churches unto themselves to get gain", need fear. </div><div><br></div><div>So far we have those NOT OF his church:</div><div>1. "harden their hearts"</div><div>2. Fear not Christ </div><div>3. Keep not His commandments</div><div>4. What Commandments? </div><div>Don't build up churches for our own gain</div><div>If you do the above you are:</div><div>1. wicked</div><div>2. Building up the kingdom of the devil</div><div>God will disturb, cause to tremble and shake to the center these. </div><div><br></div><div>We also have those of His church:</div><div>1. God will establish His church to this who harden not their hearts</div><div>2. If we belong to His church we need not fear</div><div>3. We need not fear because His church will inherit His Kingdom</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> Who benefits from the LDS church's business holdings? Who receives a "modest stipend" and free designer clothing, and access to the largest car fleet in the U.S.? What families "gains" from the "church's" businesses? Does the fact that the church could have built 150 temples with the money they used for City Creek Mall benefit the members or a few elite and select few leaders along with their family and friends? The LDS church's leadership is among the highest paid clergy in the world. </div><div><br></div><div>Interesting... Fear and tremble if you benefit from your church, or if you get "gain" from your church? Getting gain, by this definition of Christ's, are those that "harden their hearts". </div><div><br></div><div>Hardening of the heart and fearing not The Lord, and keeping not His commandments does NOT refer to disobeying your leaders, (according to Christ) rather it is referring to those who gain or profit or make a living off a church, and that church which delivers gain to its leaders, can only ever be, and always has been and ever will be, the Devil's church. </div><div><br></div><div>Don't be upset with me. Here we have Christ's definition of "harden not their hearts." If this upsets you think about who is speaking in this scripture. It's His definition. Be careful whose words you condemn. The next verse He claims the words as His. </div><div><br></div><div>57 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not. </div><div>58 I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. </div><div>59 I am he who said—Other sheep have I which are not of this fold—unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not. </div><div>60 And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob; </div><div>61 And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name; </div><div><br></div><div>--These are Christ's Words. </div><div>--It's His light which the wicked do not comprehend. </div><div>--Christ has "other sheep" outside the hierarchy of whatever institutions which have ever been built up by men as "a church unto themselves for gain". From the Jews to the Catholics to the Mormons, the history is the same, and God ALWAYS has "other sheep" prepared, and</div><div>--These sheep will do Marvelous "Works". If you know what this means you will recognize these "other sheep" when they come among you. For they will perform and will manifest the very Powers of Godliness rather than just imitating a form of it. These "other sheep" are a branch of the House of Jacob because they come from The Lord bearing His message, and performing His works, and by the performance of their righteous works they become the house of God, the house of El. </div><div><br></div><div>62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me. </div><div><br></div><div>Who is going to do this? Is it some church or organization? Is it Christ Himself? Who is Christ bringing to light His gospel to? Is it the "other sheep" of which He spoke?</div><div><br></div><div>Why and what shall these other sheep "not deny", that those given this revelation do deny? Yes, they (His other sheep) will NOT deny "that which you have received", or in other words, they won't deny the "true points of [Christ's] doctrine" as this group being addressed in D&C 10 (the LDS today) has denied or will deny in our day. Only those in possession of D&C 10 would qualify as having "received" and then "denying" these points of His true doctrine. This refusal to receive is prophesied of us, the church, by Christ Himself! A new group of "other sheep" will not deny the true points of His doctrine and will thereby lay hold upon the blessings offered and promised. </div><div><br></div><div>63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. </div><div><br></div><div>God is doing this all to establish His gospel so that there won't be so much contention. </div><div>Contention... The Lord doesn't like it. What does it mean? Arguing? Fighting? Or does it mean what The Lord means here? The Lord is saying that contention is fighting against "the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not." Contention is when we fight against Gods truth and light, when we err in the true points of His doctrine, wresting the scriptures in that we don't understand them. Contention is not whether we disagree or even argue about things. Contention is a refusal to accept Christ's true points of doctrine the way He ordains it compared to the way men offer it. </div><div><br></div><div>64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery; </div><div>65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts; </div><div><br></div><div>Here is a mystery!? Why is the idea of God gathering "them" (His other sheep) a mystery?? What is so mysterious about that? Is it a mystery because we have wrested the scriptures to support our vain, foolish, "trust in the arm of flesh" (prophet can't lead you astray), all is well in Zion doctrine? We will see why this is "mysterious" to those who ascribe to such nonsense. </div><div><br></div><div>God can and will always do His work, which is, to gather another group (other sheep) as long as they don't harden their hearts! (Seek to get gain from a church). How beautiful! How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of Him who publisheth Peace!! The "chosen" people always think their chosen status means God cannot and will not ever gather "other sheep"! So this becomes a mystery precisely because the "chosen", look beyond the mark and are blind to Gods work, which is laid out in plainness right before them. They ignore the truth while they toil away in the devils kingdom all the while claiming keys and royal priesthood and lineage (imagined or literal) will save them. It didn't save the Jews, it didn't save the children of Israel, it didn't save Laman and Lemuel, or any of the other "firstborn", older sons who lost their birthright because they didn't think God ever could or would gather "other sheep" or pass the birthright on to others! </div><div><br></div><div>66 Yea, if they will come, they may come, and partake of the waters of life freely. </div><div><br></div><div>Any people, anytime God decides to do so, can partake of the waters of life freely! The "waters of life" are here referring to the waters of baptism! How do we know this? We will see below. </div><div><br></div><div>67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. </div><div>68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church. </div><div><br></div><div>Here is the definition of "My (Christ's) church": "repent and come unto Christ". That's it. No swearing fealty to an organization or it's president, no requirement to pay tithes. It's free! Do you believe in Christ, and have you repented? You're in!!</div><div><br></div><div>38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. </div><div>39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. </div><div>40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. (Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi, 3 Nephi 11)</div><div><br></div><div>If any declare more or less than this simple doctrine of Christ, they "come of evil," "the gates of hell stand open to receive such", and "the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church."</div><div><br></div><div>The waters of life are here defined by Christ, using almost the exact same language and phrasing as He did to Joseph in section 10, as baptism. This is His church. This is His doctrine. </div><div><br></div><div>69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. </div><div>70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 10)</div><div><br></div><div>This is the redeemer speaking. These are His words. If anyone has a problem with these words, then take it up with Christ. For these are a His words. If any think those who follow these words are apostate, then take it up with Christ. For they are His words. If I'm given the choice between being "apostate" from God, or "apostate from men, I choose apostasy from men. I'm done being apostate from my Lord. I'm His. I'm all in. </div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6902297433672101641.post-81543697492775204972014-09-07T23:12:00.001-07:002014-11-23T16:16:00.810-08:00I am in your midst!<div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">D&C 6:32-37 </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them - even so am I in the midst of you. Fear not to do good, MY SONS, for whatsoever ye sow, that shall ye also reap; therefore, if ye sow good ye shall also reap good for your reward. Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for IF "ye" are BUILT UPON "MY ROCK", "they" cannot prevail. Behold, I DO NOT CONDEMN you, go your ways and sin no more; perform with soberness the work which I have commanded you. Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not. BEHOLD the wounds which pierced my side, and also the prints of the nails in my hands and feet; be faithful, keep my commandments, and ye shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. Amen. (My emphasis in caps) </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Ok let's parse this: </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Who is speaking? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">To Whom is Christ speaking? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Why would "His sons" be able to "fear not" after this REVELATION? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What is it "ye" must be built on? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What Rock? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What is the nature of the Rock to be built on? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Is it any Rock we find that LOOKS like a good rock? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">How would one know if they were on the true Rock of Christ if they did NOT UNDERSTAND THE TRUE NATURE OF GOD!? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What does the phrase, "I DO NOT CONDEMN you" mean for those Christ is speaking to? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Does this scripture automatically apply to me or to all who thereafter read this passage? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What does Christ command the witnesses to this revelation to do? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Why would He need to command them to behold? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What is it they behold? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Does this "beholding" have anything to do with: </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">1. Fearing not? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">2. Of Christ being in the midst where two or three are gathered together in my name? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">3. Of being His Sons/daughters? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">4. Doing good? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">5. Sowing and then reaping? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">6. Having the capacity to "build upon My Rock? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">7. To not being condemned? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">8. To having the capacity to "sin no more"? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">9. To having the capacity to "Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not." </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">10. Earth and hell NOT prevailing over them? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">How are they qualified or prepared to be able to "behold"? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Is it because Christ has named them a son, and condemned them not, or in other words, He took away their sins? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">If their sins are taken away are they "sinless"? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">If sinless, and a son, are they not begotten? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Why does this description of them receiving this so resemble the attributes of Christ as our Savior? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">What exactly is going on here? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">Have you beheld Salvation? </div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><div>41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened— </div><div>42 He that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that abaseth himself shall be exalted. </div><div>43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 101)</div><div><br></div><div>"they were found transgressors"</div><div>Transgressors of what?</div><div>"He that exalteth himself"</div><div><br></div><div>Do we exalt ourselves when we assume we have the same blessing as those who have stood in the Presence of Christ, and beheld His body and His wounds? In other words, do we exalt ourselves when we assume that when 2 or 3 of us are gathered together that Christ is in our midst? Have we received what those in this scripture received? </div></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Noteworthy; font-size: 18px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 24px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(130, 98, 83, 0.0976563); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(191, 107, 82, 0.496094); ">If we haven't, then He may not be in the midst if us, and to assume as much is the height of vanity and pride. Him in our midst would be reserved for those who received all that was given in the revelation and manifestation to those present that day. If we have that, then when we gather, He IS in our midst indeed!</div>Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10249646410336895150noreply@blogger.com0