A New Day Dawns

Dear Family,

Owing to the many reports which are in circulation in relation to my family's private religious worship, all of which has resulted in assaults against our character, whether intentional or un-intentional, I have been induced to write this letter, to disabuse the minds of those so doing, and to put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts, as they have transpired, in relation both to myself and my family, so far as I have such facts in my possession.

Inasmuch as fear reigns in the hearts of many, I feel I must disclose up front that on the night of Thursday March 5th and into the morning of March 6th, at exactly midnight I, Jonathan was excommunicated from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for apostasy. Kari was excommunicated 3 days later on Sunday March 8th at 9:30pm, for the same false accusation of apostasy as I was. All this came as a result of our desire to enter into the Presence of God and His angels, which necessarily includes following the precepts of the most correct book on earth, to not only say but to DO, (D&C 84) which book and it's precepts are "not in line with current church doctrine", according to the testimony of both our Bishop and Stake President. (Their words not mine). Therefore, if you do not want to read or know about or understand the precepts contained in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book, and also if you have no desire to see into our hearts and our journey, and you fear that you may be damaged by reading further, please stop and do not continue. For we have been cast into that pit of despair by our brethren even as Joseph of old, apparently without water, all with a smile on the face of authority. 

Here are the official definitions:
Apostasy
1. Repeatedly act in clear open and deliberate public opposition to the church or it's leaders. 
2. Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority. 
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those who advocate plural marriage) after they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority. 
4. Formally join another church or advocate it's teachings. 

They read these definitions from the handbook but never accused me of any particular charge, nor told me which charge was made against me, nor told me which charge in their opinion I was guilty of. So my response is to all four charges listed in the CHI. 
As to accusation:
1.  I have never publicly acted in any way in opposition to the church or it's leaders. I have worshipped in private, but I have never sought to convince or publicly preach my private views. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. My only speaking of my beliefs has been in private conversations. 
2. I have never preached or taught as "church doctrine" anything other than approved correlated material. I have had private discussions regarding scripture (that is approved as the canon for the church btw) but I never taught anything as church doctrine that wasn't "accepted" as such. My bishop nor the stake president could identify anything I had taught as church doctrine that was false doctrine. I have different views, but I never taught my views as church doctrine. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. 
3. I have never followed the teachings of any "apostate sects". I do not belong to, nor I have I ever belonged to any earthly church but the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I do not belong to any other "sect" or church. I have not started a church nor do I intend to. The claim that I "follow Denver Snuffer" therefore I follow an apostate sect, is false. I do not follow him or any other man. I have never met the man, I do not follow him, I testified that for me he is not a prophet, I don't belong to nor do I even know of a church of his that I even could belong to if I wanted to. I am following the scriptures. My views do closely align with Denver's, but that is my own truth and knowledge from God to me, and you can leave him out of it. My beliefs are mine and not anyone else's. I AM INNOCENT of the charge. 
4. Once again, I do not belong to any other church, nor do I teach any other church's teachings. I AM INNOCENT of this charge. 

I testified of my innocence of all these charges, and asked to go my way in peace, restoring me to full fellowship. I would not accuse them if they did not accuse me. They instead claimed I belonged to and taught the teachings of a church and sect that does NOT exist, by a man I've never met and do NOT follow, teaching as church doctrine some undefined and unnamed "false doctrine".  (which was never explained, nor was I given where I might find said "true" or "false" "church doctrine" in scripture, being referred instead to "current church doctrine", and the handbook. 

My Story
It has been my desire for some years now, to obtain an audience with The Lord, as the scriptures, specifically the Book of Mormon, make the astounding claim that doing so is not only how redemption is obtained, but also the moment in which it is in fact received, and that this must be done while in this life. To accomplish this it is necessary to know upon what principles this may be accomplished, if in fact it is necessary for salvation, and where to find the principles laid out, if in fact such principles exist. 

Who do I think I am? Why would I believe I could, or that I even had a right to seek such blessings? 

I trust Joseph’s certification of the Book of Mormon when he said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (DHC 4: 461.) I would like to be nearer to God. 

When I compare the speculation of scholars, or what others, perhaps well intentioned, put forth "in the absence of revelation" (to quote a recent church press release referring to past presidents of the church being in "the absence of revelation"), when I compare all of that to what Joseph had revealed to him, I believe it safe to invariably trust Joseph whenever the two differ. God vouched for Joseph's words in revelation. 

I trust Joseph Smith and I trust the Book of Mormon as Gods word to me to bring to pass my immortality and eternal life. Here is something from what came to us through Joseph: 

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was CONFERRED UPON ME FROM THE FATHERS, it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.
Abraham 1:2-4

I trusted Joseph was telling me how to obtain this priesthood and that I too had a right to seek for greater happiness peace and rest, and the right to administer the same. 

But it isn’t simply Joseph we need to be concerned with. It is the God of Heaven who spoke to Joseph who is the real issue. First, we should resolve the issue of whether God CAN still speak to mankind. If so, then will He speak to you? Joseph stands for the idea that one recently lived life received God’s direct involvement. It opens the possibility God can continue to be involved with anyones life. But the proof of God’s involvement in your own life remains to be accomplished. If you don’t hear from God directly then Joseph’s contact with Him is largely meaningless. Joseph taught that promises made to anyone else are unrelated to and do not benefit you. You must go get your own.

"You, no doubt, will agree with us, and say, that you have no right to claim the promises of the inhabitants before the flood; that you cannot found your hopes of salvation upon the obedience of the children of Israel when journeying in the wilderness, nor can you expect that the blessings which the apostles pronounced upon the churches of Christ eighteen hundred years ago, were intended for you. Again, if others’ blessings are not your blessings, others’ curses are not your curses; you stand then in these last days, as all have stood before you, agents unto yourselves, to be judged according to your works.” (TPJS p. 12.)

So what does that look like? What is salvation? In Ether 3:13 it says:

And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The moment in which the Brother of Jared is redeemed is when The Lord brings him back into His Presence. We can see therefore that salvation consists of entering into the Presence of The Lord, and seeing Him face to face while in the flesh. 

D&C 93:1:
"Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am."

EVERY SOUL! Does this include you and me?

If you believe that this is a singular event in scripture then you are not paying attention to scripture. From Adam, to Enoch, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Elijah, Samuel, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Alma, Ammon, Aaron, Omner, Lamoni, his father the King, Helaman, Nephi and Lehi brothers, Moroni, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Ether, a whole list in the book of Ether, and all the holy Fathers, all these came into the Presence of The Lord while in mortality. Joseph Smith also entered the Presence of God. All these were saved and redeemed from the fall by this experience.

Go to Doctrine and Covenants section 76. The closing verses in the Vision beginning at verse 114 tell us: 

"But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory." 

There are things both unlawful and impossible to make known. But they are neither unlawful nor impossible for God to make known. You are invited to receive them “while in the flesh” or, in other words, now, in mortality. This is not kept from us until the afterlife. This is what God offers to us all right now. 

Is God Changeable?
The next question we must ask is God changeable? Can I expect to receive salvation some other way other than in this pattern found in scripture? Would God save us in the exact same way He has and will save all His children? Or will He save us by some other way? Would an ordinance deliver salvation? Or are they a type or symbol for actually entering into the Presence of God? Of actually conversing with The Lord through the veil? Has God given His power to men? Has Christ ceased to minister? Can I trust the arm of flesh or am I required, like all before me, in every age of man since Adam down to the present day, to arise and enter His Presence myself, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling by so doing?

Moroni 8:18 answers: "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."

So if salvation and redemption from the fall consists of entering into God's Presence while in the flesh, and God is unchangeable, then I believe that this is how and when salvation occurs. 

How then do I enter into Gods Presence? It seems almost impossible. As I considered the narrowness of the pass and the height of the mountain necessary to ascend, I shrank. I get the fear. I get the reluctance to approach the mount. I also stood afar off and watched the lightning and the thunderings. I understand the Terror of The Lord. I was content to let my own modern day Moses go up for me, and for a long time I believed that was salvific. 

18 ¶And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exodus 20:18-19

It was too high a mountain, and the requirements were too narrow and fear took the very heart of me. I also had 40+ years of a reliance upon the arm of flesh built into my religion which said, "you don't need to talk with God, we will do that for you; you will see Him in the next life, you do not need to enter in to His Presence in this life". 

After much study and prayer, I decided that if Joseph and all the other holy men could and did find God despite the fearfulness of the journey, and despite the false traditions of my fathers, (Abraham 1:5), I found courage in the words of James; I decided that I too lacked wisdom and that perhaps God would also answer a lad as ignorant and foolish as myself; and so I decided to inquire. 

The answer came at first not by a pillar of light, or an angelic encounter, but by the spirit directing me to the gospel of Christ that remains still in scripture. 

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
D&C 84:19-27

The Power of Godliness is required to see the face of God and live. 

The Power of Godliness is manifest in:
1. the ordinances and 
2. in the authority of the priesthood. 

I trusted this. I acted on this. But got nothing. I struggled for years as I cried to The Lord to bestow upon me also the Power of Godliness. What was wrong? Why could I not obtain this Power of Godliness? Did God no longer appear to men? Was salvation not found in the earth? Was I doomed to be cast out forever because God had changed the rules and I was ignorant of His new ones, or was I doing something wrong in my approach?

As I cried out to The Lord, He kept leading me to the ordinances. "Why don't they work for me", I finally cried out? The answer was a thunderbolt and a lightning bolt that struck fear in me. Truly a moment of "awakening to my awful situation", as the answer came again in the form of scripture. 

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."
Isaiah 24:5

The ordinances are not the same as Joseph restored them! We use different implements and different words, and different requirements for access to the ordinances, and by so doing we "break the everlasting covenant". We do not perform ordinances the same as in Joseph's day, nor as described in the Book of Mormon, by the words of Christ Himself. There is also no other church that calls their covenants, "the everlasting covenant". Isaiah was speaking to us! To me! I was not receiving the power of Godliness from the ordinances because they had been changed and thereby broken. 

So I need:
1. To see the face of God while in the flesh for redemption
2. To do so and live I must have the power of godliness
3. To get the Power of Godliness I must perform a valid/unchanged ordinance with real priesthood power, not just a form of priesthood as Christ informs Joseph in the first vision. 

We have come full circle, where we as latter day saints find ourselves with a form of Godliness without any power. How is that possible you ask? We have assurances we will never be led astray! We have a unbroken chain of authority from Joseph to now! We have the ordinances and the priesthood and this is Gods church! We are His chosen people! Yes. I thought the same thing. But an empty hole filled my heart, because I knew I didn't know God and I knew there was something more. Deep down I knew salvation meant something more. Why was I being told "all is well in Zion", and that they would speak to God for me? Had God changed the rules?

I had come to a cross roads. Either I trusted that God spoke to man still, and furthermore that He was speaking to me, and leading me as I went forward, or I must return to the idolatry of my fathers and accept that God had given His power to men and no longer ministered personally; he had completed His work and left it to men. 

And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
2 Nephi 28:5

The thing that tripped me up in this verse for a long time was the phrase, "behold there is no God today". The leaders always spoke of and testified of God. None ever said those words  of Nephi. But what do those words mean? If they changed the ordinances and defined priesthood as "the power to act in Gods name on the earth" (Joseph F. Smith came up with that definition), but God had never given His Power to men, but wanted to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life by coming to us and appearing to us and taking up His abode with us, then they could profess "God" but they would be denying the very way in which God does His work, thereby essentially saying "there is no God". The best way to deceive is not to get us deny God by our words, but for us to do as all men have done in every age, and that is to profess Gods name while denying His personal ministry among us, preferring instead a form of Godliness delivered by the arm of flesh, to His actual power, the Power of Godliness. 

As I determined that I must perform an unchanged ordinance, or be damned, the question became, "How to get authority?" How does God work among men? Is He distant and unknowable or is He directly and personally involved? Once again Joseph came with an answer:

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,        
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, NOT BY MAN nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;        
29 And it was delivered unto men by the CALLING OF HIS OWN VOICE, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
JST, Genesis 14:27-29

Priesthood comes "NOT BY MAN... But of God... Delivered unto men by the calling of His own voice."

Could this be true? Perhaps I was deceived and reading the scriptures wrong and interpreting them contrary to Gods will?

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, BY MINE OWN VOICE, out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
D&C 84:42

Not only does God give priesthood by His own voice out of the heavens, but "wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood...which I now confirm by mine own voice out of the heavens"

Do we really have to hear Gods voice for priesthood? We have a direct line of authority from Moses down right? So said the Jews in Christ's time and Laman to his father Lehi, and the Catholics to the Christians, and now our leaders claim the same power as Joseph simply because they sit in the same seat as Joseph. But did God speak by His own voice out of the heavens to Joseph? Is that how he received all he did including his priesthood? So if Joseph so received, why not me?

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
D&C 84:52-53

The righteous hear Gods voice. 
The wicked are those who do NOT hear His voice.
Can this be right? 

Wo's, and descriptions and definitions of the righteous vs. the wicked that make us squirm! Thunder and lightning indeed!! No wonder we as Latter Day Saints "stand afar off" and ask our Moses to "go up" for us! This is disturbing stuff! God should not say such things! It gives me a dark feeling! This D&C and God's words here must be of the devil because would He really require us to hear his voice before we have priesthood? I feel dark from these words! Am I really wicked if I do not hear His voice? Should I take serious when God pronounces a "wo" upon all who do not receive this priesthood by His own voice out if heaven? God is going to lose His audience if He keeps saying things that cause me such discomfort! We are prospering! Zion is here and well! Tell me some more soothing stories of our noble pioneers so I feel good about my current position before God! 

4 Nephi 1:26-27:
"...and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ."

Is the Mormon church "built up to get gain"? I don't ask that with any judgement. I'm asking: Is it? Is it worth Billions of dollars? Can billions of dollars be considered "gain"?  Are the top officials of the LDS church among the highest paid clergy in the world? If so, does that equal "gain"? What does "modest stipend" mean? Does that mean if you compare the "stipend" of the top leaders of the church to equivalent salaries of CEO's running similarly valued companies it's "a modest stipend"? Or does if mean just enough to live on? When you define and see what they mean by "modest stipend", and you see the brethren and their friends and families living in lavish million dollars homes and faring sumptuously while the poor suffer, are you willing to be honest with yourself about whether the church is "built up to get gain"? Is telling the truth "evil speaking"? I ask these hard questions because my eternal soul hangs in the balance. I need to know so that I can determine how to proceed. I must see things as they really are or I am blinded by the craftiness of men who will always offer a false religion using the vocabulary of scripture. If the leaders are doing this does it affect my salvation? Can I allow them to do as they are and not judge them and forgive them and then go pursue the Holy One of Israel directly and stop relying on the arm of flesh? Is that the only real value of seeing these things as they are? Not to judge but to offer mercy and forgiveness and then stop my idolatry and go and do as the Book of Mormon asks and come into the Presence of God?

27 And it came to pass that when two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet THEY DID DENY the MORE PARTS OF HIS GOSPEL, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.

Is putting the church handbook higher in order than the truest book on earth "denying the more parts of His gospel"? If the handbook and the truest book differ which one can I rely on to bring me "closer to God"? If I choose wrong, would I move farther away from God or closer? If farther away from God what are my views? What are my perceptions? These are difficult questions. 

So I need:
1. To see the face of God while in the flesh to receive redemption
2. To do so and live I must have the power of godliness
3. To get the Power of Godliness I must perform a valid ordinance that is unchanged
4. with real priesthood power, not just a form of it as Moroni informs Joseph
5. Priesthood comes not by men, but the voice of God
6. Wo unto all who do not hear his voice; these are the "wicked"
7. Denying Christ is about not coming into His Presence, and teaching it's not necessary. 

It begins and ends then with a valid ordinance and priesthood from God. How then to proceed? What is the process? Once again we turn to the Book of Mormon for an answer and find the words of Christ himself, telling us how to proceed, and what His doctrine is. 

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Doctrine:
Repent. 
Be Baptized. 

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

The reason to be baptized is, baptism by water, after having repented, causes the recipient to be visited with "fire" and the Holy Ghost. Are these separate? Different? Why make the distinction if they are the same exact thing? 

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

"And again". 

What does that mean? Does "again" mean, to repeat? To do it again? Because, he commanded all to be baptized. These He was speaking to would have obeyed. They were in His Presence. Why does He say, "and again"? Could it be that The Lord may have known that we are weak? That we fall into error and sin? Is the merciful Lord speaking in a manner that we may know how to become clean without spot before. Him? Is this mechanism baptism? 

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
Moroni 8:25

If any of us has fallen into sin, what is the gift God has given to allow us to get back to being right with God? Yes. Repentance. And here we learn that the "first fruit" of repentance is BAPTISM!  Does partaking of the sacrament often make it less meaningful? So why do we think to be baptized again would? If this is the most correct book and these really are Christ's words, can I trust them? What if someone else in a position of authority speaks in direct contradiction to these words of Christ? Which one do we trust? Does our very eternal soul hang in the balance if our choice? 

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Three "agains". Three levels. Perhaps this book has something in it that can bring me the thing I desire! Perhaps the power of Godliness is not so impossible after all! If this doctrine, of this Christ, can be trusted here in the most correct book on earth, perhaps by following it I can lay hold on the blessing of all the saints of former days!

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

What is the rock? 
This doctrine of Christ. 
What doctrine is that?
To "be" baptized" --present tense. 
When? 
Whenever I desire to bring forth fruit following my repentance. 

To be baptized after repentance is to validate or "bring forth fruit" which is the Rock. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against that soul who follows the law preordained before the foundation of the world upon which that blessing is predicated. Can we expect to receive this blessing of the gates of hell not prevailing against us by following a different law? Can we "follow the brethren" in doing exactly opposite of what Christ tells us to do, and still expect the gates of hell to not prevail? Or must we do as Jesus asks?

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
3 Nephi 11:31-40

Any more, or any less, cometh of evil, and the gates of hell stand open to these. Depending on what law we obey, the gates of hell are either open or shut for us. This is an awful situation indeed! How can I know where to find solid ground? Is this doctrine of Christ to be trusted? Or can I trust a handbook I've never read, written by a committee of men I never sustained or do not even know who they are? Why is there such a large gulf between the two? Doesn't God know this is His church? Why does He not stop this? Is it possible God has allowed us to choose for ourselves? Have we chosen to have a King just like ancient Israel? Is it possible He really is the same, and that we are faced with the same awful dilemma of every age from Adam down, namely the choice between the precepts on men, and their false assurances of safety and "all is well" on the one hand, and the subtle whisperings of the spirit telling you to come unto Christ while in this life, in the flesh, and receive the salvation He offers by His personal and literal appearance to you. 

5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.

7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the wine of the cup and drink of it, and that they should also give unto the multitude that they might drink of it.

9 And it came to pass that they did so, and did drink of it and were filled; and they gave unto the multitude, and they did drink, and they were filled.

10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you.

11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.

14 Therefore blessed are ye if ye shall keep my commandments, which the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you.
3 Nephi 18:5-14

Interesting that Christ implements baptism and calls it His doctrine, and His rock, and says any more than this cometh of evil and then immediately He adds the sacrament with bread and wine as also being part of that same doctrine. Does this have to do with the "floods" and the "winds" coming to beat upon them? If baptism is the Rock of Christ, the sacrament is to fortify us after we get our feet on the rock from the winds and floods that are going to beat upon us and try and get us off the rock of baptism. The sacrament is to remind us that the rock is baptism. Sacrament helps us keep our feet on that rock. Sacrament does not replace the rock! It helps keep us on the rock as the winds and floods come upon us and try to knock us off. 

Believing that I could get nearer to God by abiding by the precepts in the most correct book, I once again asked God, because if anyone lacked wisdom it is me. And God spoke also to me, giving me power and authority to baptize and bless the sacrament by His own voice out if the heavens. And when there was doubt He assured me:  "You go down to the river in faith and enter in, and if no one else will baptize you, then I will provide a way or I will do it Myself"

So I repented. Like never before. For an entire lifetime of sin. For all that I lacked. For my false traditions and my lack of knowledge. I cried unto God pleading for Him to have mercy upon me also! 

On September 21, 2012, on the fall equinox, along with my wife and daughter, I drove to the river near my home in the early morning hours to meet a friend who had agreed to baptize me. We knelt in humble prayer and dedicated the spot. Our own little "waters of Mormon" as we were told to call it. 

And as I came out of the water, I prophesied in the name of The Lord of things that were shortly to come to pass. Of the fulfillment of the prophesy of John the Baptist: "that the sons of Levi would soon make an acceptable offering in righteousness before The Lord", and that "the time was at hand for The Lord to commence His work in bringing to pass the covenants made to the fathers", and that "a mighty work would be performed here in this Phoenix area". 

On the following day I ascended a high mountain near my home and partook of the sacrament in the exact way Christ instituted it in 3 Nephi, and as He did to Joseph Smith. And the heavens opened and I beheld a light above a bush and was shown things such that, I can testify that I too have had my own "first vision" type encounter with God. I know Joseph saw what he saw because I too was shown a similar vision, and experienced my own personal encounter with the divine. 

From that day to today, I continue to "meet together oft" and to partake of the sacred emblems and to baptize and be baptized according to the word of Christ, in keeping His commandments, even as they of old times did also. 

5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
Moroni 6:5-6

Church here should be understood to be the believers. The few humble followers of Christ, not an organized body or institution. We may belong to these earthly institutions, but this is referencing another church; an assembly of another world. 

As a result of my pursuit of this Jesus of whom all the prophets have testified, I have been subjected to church disciplinary action culminating in a meeting where I was required to come and defend myself in front of the high counsel, against a charge that in the handbook is in seriousness next to murder and child abuse. For what? For simply doing what the Book of Mormon says. For in this way and this way only can the condemnation under which we as a latter day people labor under be removed. 

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, NOT ONLY TO SAY, BUT TO DO according to that which I have written--

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
D&C 84:54-58

Vanity is false belief, and a darkened mind is the result, and these two bring condemnation. And the only way to remove it is "not only to say but to do" the precepts found in the Book of Mormon, which will be to bring forth "fruit". Is this the same "first fruit" of Moroni 8:25, baptism? Is there another church or group that call themselves Zion other than the Latter Day Saints? Why is The Lord speaking of a "scourge and judgement to be poured out upon the children of Zion"? Who is this? Is this the Latter Day Saints? The chosen people? Why would a scourge come upon us? We will never be led astray and no matter what we choose to do or what ordinances we change and alter, or how much we change the "doctrine", God will not allow us the agency to choose to go against God's will, right? 

Wait... Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever? And who was it that killed Him? Wasn't it His chosen people? Is it possible we are no better than the Jews in Christ's time? If we refuse to behold Him do we not deny Him? Is it not those who "hear not His voice", whom God calls wicked? Is it not always so in every age of man, that mankind would rather choose religion and ordinances by men over waiting patiently "for messengers from my Father" as did Adam?  Why do we not do as Adam in the temple film? Why do we prefer to accept the "many who will be willing to preach you the precepts of men... Mingled with scripture", instead of waiting for Fathers messengers, or angels to come and teach us? 

When I began to do the ordinances, I was told not to fight against the church. I was told I did not have the right to tell the church to change the way they do things or how they perform ordinances. Rather, The Lord instructed me that I was to avoid the spies of the King and to perform the ordinances "privately" out of the sight of the King and his men. And to continue to serve and belong to the LDS church. But He also said, that to be redeemed and enter in, I must perform the unchanged ordinances with authority from the voice of God, receive the Power of Godliness thereby, so I could enter His Presence and live! 

I am the least of everyone of you. I am a bigger sinner and have been more lost than any of you. What does that tell you? If everyone of you in our families is a better person than me, what does that say?

If God will speak to me, He will speak to you. Do you trust Him? Do you trust Joseph? Do you trust James? James started it! Do you trust the most correct book, the Book of Mormon? If you continue to say you do, but refuse to "do" what the Book is inviting you to do, can you expect the same blessing as if you did "do" what it's asking? Is this the obedience required of us? Or is the obedience required the subjugation of our wills to an oligarchy of men in direct conflict with the scriptures? 

I take seriously my temple covenant to "obey the law of the gospel as CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE". I have not and will not make any such oath or covenant to any man or to the handbook of men. I will never again subject myself to the authority of men. I am free to be about my Fathers business at last! 

I love each of you. I do not think myself better, but consider myself the least of you. Come unto Christ and Live!

To reject me or anyone for abiding by the precepts of the Book of Mormon is to reject the Book of Mormon itself. To cast me out for abiding by and living and doing what the Book of Mormon teaches, is to cast out the Book of Mormon as your canon. It is to say and not do. It is to have a form without any power. Can we lay hold upon the blessing of drawing closer to God by refusing to obey the law upon which drawing closer to God is predicated, namely doing what the Book says?  to cast out the Book of Mormon is to NOT get closer to God because our refusal to abide by its precepts and we thereby remove ourselves from the light and knowledge God intends and desires to give us so that we may have clearer perceptions and ascend grace for grace until the perfect day when we encounter Christ exactly the same way all the holy prophets have done from the beginning, and thereby receive redemption and salvation. 

When Joseph Smith was being abused by the religionists of his day, he observed “they treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil. That there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things [were confined to and the sole right of] the apostles.” (JS-H 1: 21.) 

The people who rejected Joseph’s beliefs were rejecting the Bible itself, which they pretended was the basis for their faith. Joseph did what James 1: 5 instructed him to do, and got an answer. That is the faith he restored: A living faith in which God will speak to all who, like me, lack wisdom, liberally. I lack wisdom. I go to God with questions. So long as any of us ask in faith, He will answer. I know. He has answered me. Now Latter-day Saints think it is their right to denounce others who have asked God, and have been answered. If Latter-day Saints do possess the truth, then for those they think in error should be met with kindness, not reviling. 

(See JS-H 1: 25.) “If they suppose me to be deluded they ought to endeavor in a proper and affectionate manner to reclaim me.” (JS-H 1: 28.) Instead I hear the accusation I am “apostate”, and now I have been cast out. I am not a dissident nor have I fought against the church or it's leaders. It must put a smile on the faces of authority and the devil to cast out those seeking to do what the most correct book tells us to do. These disciples pretend to follow Joseph's restored religion while acting the part of his persecutors. The saints have come full circle indeed.

Where exactly do you draw the line and begin to denounce others as “apostate and cast me out?

If we both believe in the Book of Mormon, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both believe Joseph Smith was called of God to restore the Gospel, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both accept the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both believe in continuing revelation and that God has yet to reveal a great deal as part of the Restoration of all, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we have all of the foregoing in common, is that enough to respect one another as fellow-believers? Or do you require much more of me than I can give in order to avoid being denounced by you? How much do you want to micromanage my beliefs? Do you ever feel any twinge of concern about not permitting others to worship “according to the dictates of their conscience, and allow others the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may?” (Paraphrase of 11th Article of Faith)

If I believe priesthood has no authority over me, and you believe as Elder Oaks declared from general conference that the “keys” are the right to exercise authority, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” What if my belief is based on the scripture “no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood” which I hold in higher regard than a declaration from a church official to the contrary? (See D&C121: 41)

If I believe the Lectures on Faith are still scripture, but you do not, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If I believe the LDS Church has changed dramatically in my lifetime, and even more since Joseph Smith died, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If I believe the scriptures were given to control and govern the faith, and you believe whatever comes from living church officials can contradict or disregard the words of scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I can tolerate your view in this regard, even if I do not share it, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I use the scriptures and you use the scriptures, why are your views correct and mine incorrect? How did we arrive at the odd position that you get to call me “apostate” for believing the scriptures differently than you do? If you trust that “keys” are the thing that guarantees you salvation, what exactly are the “keys,” allowed by scripture, that bear that out?

If I will let you go in peace, why cannot you let me go likewise in peace. The LDS church is an institution of this world, not of the next. We should care less for the things of this world than we do. I am very content with my faith in God, and I'm trying to be in harmony with everything He has asked of me. If you believe the same about yourself, then let that be your assurance and have the confidence to leave me to go my way in peace. Practice your beliefs in the way you think God wants, and I will do the same.

I will never again submit to another man’s priestly claim to dominion, control, judgment or oppression. It was denounced in scripture, and I reject such things. (D&C 121: 36-42.) If you think there is a priest who has the right to demand things of you in exchange for saving you using some “key,”  I do not share your belief, but I am perfectly willing to respect you if that is yours. Happy is the man who serves his God in faith and conviction. Happier still is the man whose God is Christ and therefore respects his right to voluntarily act for himself, accepting full accountability for his beliefs, and not expecting man to save him using authority to do so.

If, by your definition, I am “apostate,” then let me assure you I am content to be so. I am fully willing to accept whatever Christ’s judgment is for being so. More importantly, I am entirely satisfied I remain in harmony with what God expects of me, and I wish the same for you.

We love you all. We are happy to now be able to stop hiding at the fountain of fresh water, both from you and from the Kings men. We meant no disrespect, nor hypocrisy, but believed it a personal private matter between us and God, as the current church doctrine is not the doctrine of Christ found in the most correct book, but we felt we had no right to question our leaders on how they do things, but only to pursue our God in private, DOING what the book invites all to do, and for that reason we remained quiet and hid ourselves, as it were. 

We love The Lord Jesus Christ. He died. I know because I was given to experience His sufferings and His pains as He suffered in Gethsemane and on the cross. He lives. I know because I have seen Him. He speaks to mankind still. I know because He speaks also to me. I am a literal witness of these things and more. I know Joseph Smith is who he claimed to be because he has born witness to me personally and has ministered to me. The book of Mormon is the most correct book on the earth. I know because it has brought me close to God and by following its precepts, by doing and not just saying, I have entered in and I know The Lord. You can too. I only tell you these things because He wants you to do the same. That is His work and His glory. If you will only have even a desire to believe, let that desire work in you until it grows into a living breathing faith that when rightly pursued always terminates in the Presence of The Lord. 

With love,

Jonny and Kari Durfee

The Bells Toll

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.

10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.

D&C 63:9-10

Signs from God come to mankind because of their existing belief, by the will of God. Signs do not come to those who do not yet believe and seek the sign in order to believe, but rather come as a result of already believing.  In these signs, we can see and learn about the personality of God if we learn to see and recognize Him through these "signs" that He gives to believers. Gods cheery temperament comes through as He fulfills prophecy and gives signs to believers. The joy of God is truly manifest in the "coming to know Him".  

I was told the following quote recently as I tried to make heads or tails of what to make of my recent experience with church leaders and a seemingly impending death by excommunication. 

"In the middle ages, formal acts of public excommunication were sometimes accompanied by a ceremony wherein a bell was tolled (as for the dead), the book of the gospels was closed and a candle snuffed out."

As I heard this, I was struck by the Lords ironic sense of humor and thoughts and connections came to my mind as I pondered on the words. 

The Bells Tolling

Many years ago, words and music were put into my mind by the Spirit which became a song. I have never known quite what to make of the words until now, these many many years later. Here are some of the words:

"Do you know?

That the bells toll for you?

Do you know?

That My heart breaks for you?"

I always felt from this song as if the angels and heavens weep for me, and I always perceived that Heaven was weeping for my foolishness and wicked unbelief and pride, and that God gave me this song to testify of that sorrow of Heaven on behalf of my awful situation. I still believe that. Heaven weeps for all of us. 

But here as I face the "council of love", as my Bishop called it, God speaks to me again, and quietly lets me know that He always planned on this day for me! He always wanted me to be right here, with bells tolling my "death." I'm sure there will not be any literal bells tolling as our meeting houses do not have bells.  But in the words of a song, given long ago by revelation, God has let me know that as the bells toll on my membership in the church, His heart is breaking. Breaking for me, breaking for men who believe God has given His power to men, (see 2 Nephi 28:5), and who believe that God cannot and does not speak to the lost soul with dry bones and a parched mouth, and that He cannot restore lost rites even when the shepherds scatter the flock, and keep the weak cattle from coming to the water, and then as if keeping the sheep from the living waters is not enough, they think they have to foul the water up too. (See Ezekiel 34)

God intends to quench our thirst! He offers living waters! He has set His Hand again in establishing righteousness once again on earth to man. He intends to renew and restore our dry bones, and our dry unfruitful covenants, and to at last come and dwell among some body of believers, however few that may turn out to be. And any man or institution which denies anyone this, will dam themselves and any who give heed to them! The question is, can anyone currently obtain the Power of Godliness through the ordinances with power enough to save in them? Because once you change the ordinance, the everlasting covenant is broken, (Isaiah 24:5) and it becomes just a form of Godliness without any power to save, (JSH 1:19) which power of Godliness is required to "see the face of God and live" (D&C 84:20-25) which is the definition of salvation. (Ether 3:13) So if you can lay hold upon that power, and see Gods face and live with a changed broken ordinance without form and void, then I say go do it! But if it is now required to get that from a broken off remnant branch in whom God has preserved the restoration, then you may want to look into that with some seriousness, because Gods coming will burn them up root AND branch unto death if any of those roots or branches are not connected directly into the vine. 

Closing the Gospels

The second act upon excommunication was to close the book of the gospels.  This has been so true in my own experience, when our leaders told my wife and I, that we were guilty of "teaching false doctrine" when we taught our children "gospel precepts that are not in line with current church doctrine", even if those doctrines were found in the scriptures. 

I asked, if the scriptures contradict "current church doctrine", how can I know how to proceed to lay hold upon salvation? I don't have access to the church handbook, nor have I ever read it. How can I be judged on a standard that I don't know and is not established by common consent of the church?  This violates the laws of the land, and it don't mean the constitution although that may have once been true. I'm speaking of the laws inherent in the "land" upon which we dwell, for this is the land of Christ, and He will have it for His people if they will hearken to His voice, to not only say but to do. Without full disclosure to the body of believers, nor acceptance by common consent, the current leadership has pulled a switcheroo and supplanted Gods laws with the devils by setting aside basic inalienable rights given us before the foundation of the world.  Nephi says the iron rod is the word of God! Does that mean the handbook? Or does it happen to refer to the word of God or the scriptures? I understand that the word of God has other layers of meaning, but for this purpose, at minimum, the word of God includes the vision of all inasmuch as it is contained in scripture. 

I've also covenanted in the temple to obey the law of the gospel as contained in scripture. Which one do I choose? Handbook or scripture? Well, we all must decide, and eternity hangs in the balance, so we must choose aright, and each of us have to do that in an environment without coercion or force. I may speak the word of God boldly, but I do not preside over anyone and cannot compel any to even listen let alone actually do anything. My only tool is persuasion. Invitation. 

The bottom line from the stake presidency was, I was guilty of apostasy for teaching my own children the gospel and doctrine of Christ as found in the most correct book on earth, because it contradicted "current church doctrine", which current doctrine is found in the church handbook. 

They closed the gospels or in other words the canon of scripture or word of God in favor of a handbook written by a committee. And in saying that amen, God says amen to His association with them. By rejecting me for doing what the book says in order that I may remove the condemnation that rests upon all the Latter Day Saints, they reject their own foundational scripture and as they substitute the laws of one master for another, they become subject to their new laws and their new master and they will hear his voice instead of Christ's, and they join that great abominable church because they substitute the vocabulary of Zion for their false twisted religion built up to get gain. 

I pointed out that if rebaptism was "church doctrine"up until the 1950's, and now it's not, then all the prophets up to the time before they changed the doctrine were leading the church astray, or the prophets since then were. Or it's not doctrine at all that we follow today but simply policy, and since we all know these men cannot lead us astray, then it is clearly just a policy, and so it wouldn't matter if I practiced the gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Book of Mormon in private, because it's simply policy. 

Their response was we have the authority and no one else can do the ordinances unless we say so. The scripture was closed and another handbook put in their place. 

Here is Joseph Smith on scripture in his journey to God, recorded in 1832 by Fred. Williams:

"which led me to Searching the Scriptures believing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them…and by Searching the Scriptures I found that {mand} [mankind] did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith"

Joseph showed the way to resolve the question of God and true worship was to resort to the word of God. Someone should have told Joseph Sr. that teaching his children to look for the answer in scripture is apostate behavior and he should have gone and looked at the correlated gospel as found in some church or others handbook. 

Snuffing out a candle

The last thing the church would do to an excommunicant, was to snuff out a candle. This is beyond irony for me. The original accusation of apostasy against me and my family was twofold:

1. Did we currently, or have we ever at any time in the past, read the writings and teachings of a man named Denver Snuffer?

2. Are we currently or have we ever in the past performed the sacrament anywhere outside the church?

How funny that a candle being "snuffed" out for reading writings by a man named Snuffer is the symbol of excommunication?  Even more ironic is the cover of the book that got Denver ex'ed, Passing the Heavenly Gift, has a picture of a candle going out. Denver in Lecture 2, "Faith", tells us about that snuffed out candle:

 "To reignite the flame, all it takes is the breath of the Spirit speaking to you. That's all it takes, and the breath of the Spirit is contingent upon what it says to you. It is dependent on the faith that you have in God, to hear what it is that he's saying."-- IDF Talk

And faith is dependent upon a correct understanding of the nature and attributes of God which can only be obtained by sacrifice, as Joseph taught in Lectures on Faith.  And as a result of the quality of faith, or in ither words the more correct ones understanding of Gods one acquires, then one hears God more clearly or less clearly. Don't let that candle get extinguished! Don't let it go dim or fade to an ember! The Book of Mormon is given to bring mankind closer to God by abiding by its precepts! Let it inform and guide your approach to Him! If you do His voice gets louder and clearer. 

Man and their institutions can cast out those who come among them preaching the doctrine of Christ all they want. They can snuff candles out, close scripture and toll the bells for your death, but if you are ignited inside with the flame of that spirit, of knowing that I Am that I Am, then God will have a friend here on the earth and that is something men cannot touch or alter with their counsels of love and their coercive controlling and dominating behavior. For instead of removing priesthood and blessings as they desire or believe, God will answer upon their own heads their own judgement and their power and keys will be effectively wrested and given to those they reviled, with God saying "amen" to their priesthood as they attempt to unjustly say amen to the priesthood of His friends. 

Do you know?

That the bells toll for you?

Do you know? 

That His heart is broken for you? 

At 12:01 a.m. On Thursday March 6, 2015, I Jonathan Durfee was excommunicated from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, after a 3 1/2 hour discussion on the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the Lords will that they excommunicate me, as that was in His heart all along. 

For some reason this had to be given to the high counsel, the seventies and the quorum of twelve for casting me into a pit without water:

20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

Alma 13:20

44 O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood. 

45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, 2 Nephi 9)

Stake President called me today

February 19, 2012

President Barker called me and said, "so we left it with some texts you sent me, do you still feel the same way as you did in the texts?"

I said, "well yes.  You've put me a a tight spot. You have forced me to choose between The Lord who is telling me not only am I authorized, but that I am required to perform ordinances, because that's how we get the Power of Godliness, which is necessary to see His face and live. So I wish you wouldn't do this, but if I have to choose, I choose to do what God is asking me, because that's how I get salvation! If you're asking me to choose between salvation and submitting to "the current church doctrine, then I choose salvation."

President Barker:

"Well then we are going to have to convene a court for you. We can't do this as a family so this will be for you only. The Bishop will be doing this for Kari if she still believes the same way you do. Does she?"

Jonny: "yes, she does"

President Barker: "well he will call her in then. You can testify if you want and Kari can come if she wants, and she can testify if she wants, but no kids under 18... I don't think we will allow any kids under 18. You can also call others to come in and testify if you want too. We'll try to keep it simple though. So I was thinking May 5th, will that work for you?"

Jonny: "that's in 2 1/2 months! Why would we wait so long? Honestly, I have no idea where I'll be in 2 1/2 months!"

President: "no, in two weeks"

Jonny: "oh so like, March 5th?"

President: "yes. We also need to deliver a letter, do you still live with the (blanks)?

Jonny: "no we moved. Were in transition right now, so we really don't have a place...we're staying with some friends who took us in. But I was going to come to church on Sunday, so..."

President: "oh that's perfect! We can do it at church! It's no big deal, we'll just give you a letter, and it's confidential and won't be a big deal. Now, you're welcome at church, but you know you are not welcome to speak about your beliefs or how you think, right?"

Jonny: "yeah I get it. I told the Bishop that's why I don't go to priesthood meeting and Sunday school, because I don't want to alarm anyone or cause them unease or for them to have "bad feelings" or anything while they're at church."

President: "ok! Great! So, we'll see you then!" Thanks! 

Jonny: uh, ok uh, thank you?

End telephone call 

So this last Sunday was the day. I found it odd that they might choose to deliver the letter announcing my execution date in the meeting house but President Barker said it was "no big deal", so it must not mean anything. What's the "big deal"? 

As we got there we realized it was ward conference; the sustaining of the officers would be taking place. I sat on the middle isle seat midway to the back and raised my arm in dissent. I felt a tremendous sadness as a witness against this departure from The Lord, the doctrine of Christ, and following scripture.  It was not pleasant but although our hearts were heavy, our spirits were light. 

The stake president approached us after the meeting with a brother Garn in tow. He looked at me, but could not meet my intense look of sorrow and compassion, and he averted his eyes from mine. 

He spoke to my wife and daughter for a few minutes and asked if they believed as I did. They responded that they did. He told them the bishop would be contacting them to hold their courts. 

He turned back to me, mumbled and hesitated, taking the letter out once or twice and then sliding it back into his pocket as if trying to decide how to proceed. He said, "we could go into the hall..." As he looked around nervously to see who was watching, then he said, "oh, it's no big deal, here you are", and he handed me the letter. 

I said, "you don't have to do this", but he just looked away, and said, "I'll see you on March 5th at 7:30". He thanked us and they walked away. 

I said under my breath, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". 

As we walked out of the building, the thought came to my mind with clarity, "so did they to Zacharias in the holy place". The account of Zacharias being murdered by the altar came to my mind, and I realized we had stood in the chapel near an altar where the emblems of our Lords body and blood were blessed, and where an offering to God is made.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Luke 11:49-52

As this thought came to my mind I repeated aloud:

 "So did they to Zacharias in the holy place", and I walked out the doors of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Texts

Following our meeting with our stake presidency my wife and I determined that we needed to make a statement of how we were proceeding in our worship, so I sent the following text to my Bishop and Stake President:

"Prez Barker and Bishop Walch, this is Jon Durfee and family. You told us to stop doing ordinances or all who are baptized members would be ex'ed. We as a family intend to continue to follow the doctrine of Christ as found in the scriptures including the ordinances that we may obtain the power to see His face and live. (D&C 84). If you must take action: "That thou doest, do quickly"."

Jonny

This is the reply from the stake president:

"Doesn't read like a removal letter! . I did get some guidance from Salt Lake about children. The thought there was a  that it did not make sense to have disciplinary Council for them. It seems like we could handle those as informal probation matters, taking away any recommends for the 12 year old and ups might have and restricting use of the priesthood. If they want to request a name removal as to the children, they can do that. That was the thought from the staff person in Salt Lake.

I will be visiting with Elder Greer and Elder Corbridge this week. Until then , other than having to address the removal letter from the (name withheld), let's just stand still.

You are doing a terrific job!" President Barker

Are you confused? So was I! Was he really praising me for "doing a good job"? What's this about a removal letter? Was he expecting me to submit one? And what's this about "guidance from Salt Lake"? I thought these excommunications were only from the local stakes and were local matters!? Are the leaders in Salt Lake lying to the public on this policy? If it's local, and not central, why would he need "guidance" from the higher ups?  He is "standing still" until he "visits with elder's Greer and Corbridge (later) this week? If he stands still until he receives instruction on how to proceed, who is really responsible for any and all action taken against me and my family?

It's like he was talking to someone else! Then came the next text:

"The message I sent was intended only for Bishop Walch. If it also went to the Durfee's, as it now occurs to me it may have, that was not intended. It should be returned." President Barker

Oh. Ok. I'll just return a text message? How do you do that? Too late! The damage is done! Apparently at least three quorums are involved in our excommunication! Incredible!

Here is my reply:

"Thanks President. You're doing a bang up job yourself. My text was not meant as a removal letter. I have no intention of leaving the church. It is MY church as much as yours or the prophets. Have you ever noticed it's called the:

1. Church of Jesus Christ. It's His, and 

2. Of Latter Day Saints. It's His and the Saints. I'm a Latter Day Saint. You may remove my name from the corporate church but I will always be a saint as long as I am Christ's. You can't ever remove that as you are not involved in that relationship. That's between Christ and me. 

Thanks for letting me know you are receiving instruction from above in direct violation of church public and official policy. This is a local matter and you do have the right "equal in authority to the twelve". You can choose, but it looks as though you've abdicated your responsibility. Apparently this isn't your choice though, as it appears to be in the hands of the 70's. I wonder who may be instructing them? God bless you for your kindness. Please allow me to worship according to my own conscience and worship in private."

He replied:

"Brother Durfee, thank you for your note back. Again, I apologize that that text went to you.that was an error.  I was not aware you had my number and thought the text had been forwarded from Bishop Walch and I was replying to him. As I also mentioned before, I am very happy to meet with you again in person if you would like. Just let me know." Sincerely, President Barker

The reason he didn't think I had his number was I asked for it and he refused to give it to me. I got the number from someone else and texted him and the bishop, the first text quoted above. Because he was denying me direct access to him he assumed the bishop had forwarded him my text and he replied. The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed! Had he not abused me by denying me his number he would never have been so careless with his response.

I replied:

"If you believe we need to speak that's fine with me. That's up to you. I love discussing the gospel of Christ. The question is will you listen? I don't feel like you are listening to me or my concerns. You have some standard that I do not see in scripture. You use a different standard of a handbook written by men. The scripture is clear: follow only Christ. "Do as I do" He says. I have done as He did. I have done so in private as I do not think I have the right to tell the leaders how to run things. They have the keys and sit in the seats of Joseph. I do not question the right of these men or the church. But I do believe I have the right to pursue God privately and still maintain my rights to GODS temple if I am worthy, which I am. Please, I will accept censure if I'm out of line with scripture, but let me worship at least as Alma, Joseph and all the prophets and people of God have. The only way I can obtain the power of godliness according to D&C 84 is to perform unchanged ordinances. I understand the church does not seek this. I respect theirs and your right to not do so. I do not preach against them or their doctrine. I just seek the face of God as commanded. Thanks for whatever you decide. Your decision either way is met with love and non judgement. I do not judge you or any who may vote to cast out. I forgive you, for you know not what you do. God Bless you!!!" (D&C 84:19-27)

Jonny

He replied: 

Brother John, thanks for your note. I will get back with you as I would like to visit again. Next Sunday is likely the best day. I will text with a time. Sincerely, President Barker 

I replied:

"Some evening this week would work for me. What is it we are going to visit about? If you are going to restore my full rights then I'd like that. If it's more about "current doctrine" from the handbook in direct conflict to the scriptures it's not going to be helpful to either one of us. You believe God has given His authority to men, passing priesthood from one man to another, (which Nephi condemns, 2Nephi 28:5). I believe one must be "called of God", directly by those who are in authority or in other words His own voice. (Gen 14, JST) "that it may be conferred upon us it is true" by other men, that is simply an invitation to go to God with confidence. Joseph taught, "All the prophets received the priesthood directly from God." But again, I don't believe I have the right to tell the leaders how to go about their job. They sit in the seats of authority. I do not question that. My conclusions are not about judging the church or men, it's about pursuing God privately as scripture directs. I sustain Prez. Monson in his calling. I sustain you. But when you seek to control, compel or dominate me, by using church discipline as a weapon to get me "in line with current doctrine", or deny me access to God by denying my right to do ordinances, then amen to your authority as it pertains to my private devotions and reaching out to God. 

Jonny

Testifying of Christ

Many have asked regarding President Monsons talk on Christ. Here is a post by Denver Snuffer regarding this talk. I was going to parse it and comment, but I think Denver's words from The Lord say it better than I could. Enjoy!

Saturday, October 2, 2010

3 Nephi 12: 2

 

"And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins." 

 

Some people are given knowledge. (D&C 46: 13.)  This would include the Prophet Joseph Smith. Others believe on their words and trust in Christ through what they have learned from witnesses of Him. (D&C 46: 14.) This would include President Thomas S. Monson, who in last General Conference testified he has no question about the testimonies of those who have seen Him. As President Monson testified: "I have read—and I believe—the testimonies of those who experienced the grief of Christ’s Crucifixion and the joy of His Resurrection. I have read—and I believe—the testimonies of those in the New World who were visited by the same risen Lord. I believe the testimony of one who, in this dispensation, spoke with the Father and the Son in a grove now called sacred and who gave his life, sealing that testimony with his blood. Declared he: 'And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father.' The darkness of death can always be dispelled by the light of revealed truth. 'I am the resurrection, and the life,' spoke the Master. 'Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.' Over the years I have heard and read testimonies too numerous to count, shared with me by individuals who testify of the reality of the Resurrection and who have received, in their hours of greatest need, the peace and comfort promised by the Savior." (He is Risen!, Sunday Morning Session, April, 2010 Session; footnotes omitted.) 

 

Why would someone be "more blessed" because they "believe in the words" of those who have "seen Christ" than those who have seen Him? What is it about believing on the words of those who have seen which is "more blessed" than the ones who see Him?

 

Notice once again the connection between having seen the Lord and "ye know that I am." Notice the use of "I am" in the statement of the Lord about Himself.

 

Now note too how the "believing in the words" is not enough, because He adds action to the belief. That is, those who "believe in your words" are required then to "come down into the depths of humility and be baptized" for the "blessing" to have any effect. It is not enough for someone to be moved to believe when they hear a witness of Christ, they must also respond to His invitation to be baptized. Before being baptized they need also to "come down into the depths of humility." The intention and inner meaning are everything. But the outward act confirms the inner change which takes place.

 

Action is married to belief and intent. Both are necessary.

 

When it is done in faith, sincerity, complying with the steps the Lord has prescribed, He promises to visit the obedient "with fire and with the Holy Ghost." This is how a person will know they have received "a remission of their sins."

 

The instructions of the Lord are intended to change lives. Change is repentance. And repentance leads to redemption. He expects our behavior to mirror our beliefs, because if behavior does not model our professed beliefs then we are hypocrites - not converts.

This is why commandments are given to us. They tell us how we can continue to receive and renew a continuing conversion to Christ's way of life.  Commandments are not a burden to bear but a roadmap to follow. They are not a measuring stick to judge and then abuse others. It is a light for us to follow.

These explanations by Christ are beyond the question of "faith verses works" because Christ is telling us we act from our heart in faith, receive ordinances because of our faith, then have our hearts filled again. We proceed from grace to grace. This is how Christ received the fullness, and the only way we may receive the fullness. (D&C 93: 12-14, 19-29.)

 

The task of knowing God always begins by trusting on the words of those who have seen Him. But it should never end there. Everyone is invited to lay aside their sins, call upon God in faith, obey His commandments, listen to the voice of inspiration and do as you are told, thereby coming to see Him face-to-face. (D&C 93: 1.) This is the reason for the book The Second Comforter. It is a manual for how any person can come back into the presence of the Lord and join those witnesses who can testify they have seen Him.

 

He lives. And He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

"Getting to know you": What to expect when called in by the stake

The following is an interview between my wife and I and our seven children in the stake high council room. The premise of the meeting was to "get to know you". After some preliminary small talk it went something like this:

Pres. Barker: Well, that’s great. That’s wonderful. Well, Jon and Kari, Brother and Sister Durfee, we’re happy to do this as a family, or however you’d like to do this. We wanted to go over a few church things…

 

Jon: Sure.

 

Pres. Barker: With your parents.

 

Jon: They’re privy to pretty much everything. So, there shouldn’t be any suprises.

 

Pres. Barker: Okay, alright. Well, that sounds great. Well, talk to us! A little bit about your faith, and talk to us about Joseph Smith, and then talk to us about President Monson. Just give us some thoughts.

 

Jon: Well. Do you want me to talk?

 

Kari: Sure!

 

Jon: Or do you want to go?

 

Kari: Go ahead.

 

Jon: Well, we believe in Joseph Smith. He is the Lord’s mouthpiece, for sure. The Lord spoke to him, the Lord appeared to him. D&C 128 says that the church is true because the voice of God, and the voice of Michael, and the voice of Raphael, and the voice of Gabriel had been heard from the beginning of the church until that time. So, you know, he spoke with these beings. He spoke with Adam and with Enoch, and Gabriel, who was Noah, as you guys know. So he was singular, you know? He had a direct connection to heaven; the heavens were opened to him. I believe that and I know it. And I don’t mean by knowing, that I just really, really believe it cause it sounds like a good story. It’s because I’ve had the same vision. The heavens have opened to me, and though I might be persecuted for saying so, I have had a vision and I have seen the Lord. That’s my testimony. I know the Lord lives because I’ve seen Him. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet because he’s spoken to me. President Monson?

 

Pres. Barker: Yeah!

 

Jon:  President Monson’s great. I love him. He’s a great man. I think that he’s the President of the Church and I think he’s doing a bang-up job, he’s doing a great job.

 

Pres. Barker: Let me ask you a question. Have you got your scriptures there?

 

Jon: Sure!

 

Pres. Barker: Would you turn to D&C Section 107:32-3. Actually, let’s just focus on 32. Let’s talk about that one. Oh, it’s 33 and 34 actually. Do you want to read that for us?

 

Jon: “The twelve are a traveling presiding high council to officiate in the name of the Lord under the direction of the presidency of the church, agreeable to the institution of heaven to build up the church and regulate all the affairs of the same, in all the nations, first unto the Gentiles, and secondly unto the Jews.”

 

Pres. Barker: Okay, what do you understand that to be, in terms of the ordinances that we participate in, in the Church? Or that anybody who belongs to the Church might participate in? Does it say how they should be performed and who would direct, who would perform those ordinances?

 

Jon: I don’t see the word ordinances in there.

 

Pres. Barker: Okay, well let’s say, ‘regulat[ing] all the affairs’ of the church, what does that mean to you?

 

Jon: Well, first of all, the first, the only man who was ever called the Prophet was Joseph Smith, up until David O. McKay in the 1950’s. Brigham Young refused the title Prophet, and he insisted on being called the President. All the other Presidents took the same thing. When President McKay was forced to take that title, he was embarrassed, at first, and refused to take it, and insisted on people calling him the President of the Church. So, I take that to mean that they are to officiate in the affairs of the church, which they do a great job at. They buy land, they build buildings, they, you know, they officiate over the temporal affairs of the church, which is also scriptural. So, that’s their job. It’s to officiate, right?

 

Pres. Barker: Let me unwind you for just a minute, there. It says to ‘regulate all the affairs of the [church]’.

 

Jon: Mmhm! Sure!

 

Pres. Barker: So, that doesn’t mean, like, baptism? You don’t think that means baptism.

 

Jon: Well, I think that Christ has an obligation and a ministry on the earth that is separate from the Church. So, for instance, Article of Faith 6 says that we believe in the organization of the church in the New Testament times, right? This was quoted to me, (by the bishop) that [this] means we have apostles and prophets, right? So, I believe in that, too! So, in the New Testament times, there was a man called of God. He was called directly by God, by the voice of God from heaven, as Genesis 14 declares that all priesthood is supposed to come. That man’s name is Paul. He was not voted in by the quorum of the Twelve, by Peter, James and John. They actually voted in a separate man. Paul was called directly by the Lord. Peter, James and John did not get jealous of Paul, they did not censure him, they did not kick him out of their church, they did not excommunicate him, or call him and say, [slaps palm on scripture] ‘we have the authority!’ They said, why don’t you write the New Testament Paul? Paul is responsible for almost two-thirds of the New Testament. So, all I want, honestly, is to worship God in private. I’ve never once preached that the Church doesn’t have authority. I believe the Church has all the public authority to officiate in all of the Church’s ordinances. I would submit to you President, I don’t do the Church’s ordinances. I baptize, by having the authority of Christ, by his own voice from heaven to me. I don’t use the words that the church uses, I don’t say ‘having been commissioned’. I have not been commissioned, I have been given authority from Christ, see the difference? And I don’t baptize to a church. I don’t belong to any other church but the LDS Church, and I desire to remain a member of that Church. And I believe that I can coexist, if you’ll let me. And I’m asking you to let me worship in private. I’m not advertising, I’m not speaking evil of you, or the prophet or anyone else. I’m simply pursuing God according to the dictates of my own conscience, as Article of Faith 11 says. Which, if you read the history, Joseph said that [Article of faith 11] in reference to a man being excommunicated because he had a different point of view. Joseph said: I don’t like that. I don’t like a man being called up; it sounds too much like the Methodists. Mormonism doesn’t have creeds that a man must believe or else he’ll be kicked out. Instead, he reinstated the man. So, I believe, you asked me about Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith saw angels. Joseph Smith talked with God. Joseph Smith got power directly from God. Genesis 14 of the Joseph Smith Translation says that priesthood comes “not by man, nor by the will of man,” not by woman, but by God directly from heaven, see? So, I don’t fight against the Church, I never have. But I do believe that God can, and will, and does [minister to man outside some "authorized channel"].  Another example is Moses. Did you know Moses didn’t come through the line of the Israelites? He was a Midianite, right? He was ordained under the hand of his father-in-law Jethro. So, you want to tell me, President, that God has done his work and that he doesn’t speak to men any longer?

 

Pres. Barker: No, no, no. Please, please stop.

 

Jon: …[you want to tell me] he can’t come and speak to men outside the Church authority? I disagree. That’s where I disagree, that’s all.

 

Kari: Well, according to our Bishop.

 

Jon: Yeah, that’s what our Bishop said. Hey, I don’t have authority to officiate in God’s ordinances.

 

Pres. Barker: You don’t.

 

Jon: Why would you say that when God says I do?

 

Pres. Barker: You remember that verse we just read?

 

Jon: Yeah.

 

Pres. Barker: Ok, well, the authorized construction of that verse is that only those that have authority to baptize, from the priesthood that was restored by John the Baptist, or Peter, James and John or Joseph Smith, must receive that authorization through the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as exists today.

 

Jon: So, what about Paul and Moses? What about them?

 

Pres. Barker: I’m talking about today.

 

Jon: What about Alma?

 

Pres. Barker: I’m talking about today.

 

Jon: So, let me understand this.

 

Pres. Barker: Yes.

 

Jon: You’re saying that today, we’re going to go away from the scriptural model, and you’re going to enforce a rule of the Church Handbook, which is not scriptural, which I don’t have access to, which I don’t know what it says. But I do know that… You know what the iron rod is? In Lehi’s dream?

 

Pres. Barker: Jon.

 

Jon: Do you know what I’ve covenanted to obey, President? No, I’m upset!

 

Pres. Barker: Please…

 

Jon: Do you know what I’ve covenanted to obey in the temple? The Law of the Gospel! And they hold up this book. [holds up quad] You’re asking me to abandon and go against the covenants I’ve made to God in his Holy temple. I’ve not covenanted to obey the Handbook, and I’ve not covenanted to obey a verse that doesn’t say anything about ordinances. Furthermore, the history of this verse actually shows that the Quorum of the Twelve is able to preside wherever there is no stake of Zion organized. That’s the complete version of that verse. So, the traveling High Council, or the Twelve, officiated wherever there weren’t stakes. That’s why Joseph Smith officiated in the High Council, not in the Quorum of the Twelve. And all the members of the First Presidency were always called, not from the Quorum of the Twelve, but from outside it. So, it’s a completely different organization. And that’s why I say, why? I’m not trying to get a following…

 

Pres. Barker: That’s fine.

 

Jon: …or have a church.

 

Pres. Barker: That’s fine.

 

I’m just simply blessing the sacrament in my home!

 

Pres. Barker: That’s, that’s fine, Jon. You’ve been given the priesthood…

 

Jon: Absolutely!

 

Pres. Barker: …by those who were ordained through a line that goes through John the Baptist, Peter, James and John giving it to Joseph Smith. Those authorized to determine who can exercise that priesthood.

 

Jon: Where is that in scripture? that someone can limit...

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, it’s right there. ‘All the affairs of the church.’ That means everything, particularly the ordinances are regulated by the person that…

 

Jon: So, why did we do baptisms clear up until 1950, why did we do rebaptisms? And now you’re saying I can’t? Because to me, that sounds like a policy change; and that’s what the Lord told me: 

"That’s not even my word Jon, that’s a policy change. Are you going to obey me or men?"

 It’s a choice between God and the arm of flesh. And all I want to do is officiate in private, and you can do all the public officiating you want.

 

Pres. Barker: And, Jon, you can do all the private officiating that you choose to do, but not under the authority that was given you through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Jon: Perfect! I don’t then! I got my authority directly from Jesus. He’s come to me and given me that authority. I don’t use the Church’s priesthood. Perfect!

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, and that’s fine. If you persist in that path…

 

Jon: No, no! I’m not using your priesthood!

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, if you persist in teaching that, as a doctrine…

 

Jon: I’m not teaching that! I’m acting in it.

 

Pres. Barker: You’re teaching it right here. [gestures to everyone, especially kids]

 

Jon: I have the right to officiate and preside in my home.

 

Pres. Barker: You’re teaching it to your children…

 

Jon: Absolutely! I’m commanded to, by scripture, to teach the law of the gospel as contained in the scriptures! You open scriptures. Let’s open some scriptures because the rest of the scriptures, preach the doctrine of Christ!

 

Pres. Barker: Please, go ahead. We’ve got to leave by 9:30, but please take as much time as you’d like. But, before you do, let me just tell you that the doctrine that you’re teaching is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Jon: So, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has let go of the iron rod. Is that what you’re telling me?

 

Pres. Barker: No, Jon. I’m saying that the doctrine you’re following is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Jon: Amen! 

And that’s sad. Because it’s not the doctrine of Christ. He actually says, repent, be baptized in the name of Christ, partake of the sacrament [with] wine and bread; any more or less than this cometh of evil. What you’re telling me is that you’re making some policy up that changes from prophet to prophet. So, which one led me astray? David O. McKay, when he said it was fine to get rebaptized? You see the problem? Joseph Smith got rebaptized several times. Brigham Young was rebaptized.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, can I stop you for a minute?

 

Jon: Sure! I just don’t understand how I’m differing in doctrine in scriptures.

 

Pres. Barker: You are. You are.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: If you ask the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints whether a person should be rebaptized, what would they tell you?

 

Jon: Uh, probably no.

 

Pres. Barker: Not probably.

 

Jon: Ok, no!

 

Pres. Barker: Absolutely no!

 

Jon: So, that’s a policy, because until 1950 we did it! So, you see the difference? Doctrine doesn’t change! Joseph institutes it, tell me which prophet has the right…[to change what Joseph had revealed to him by God?]

 

Pres. Barker: Do you believe in polygamy?

 

Jon: Absolutely not!

[this made me laugh! My perverse sense of humor almost said, "no, but would you like to meet my other wives and question them?" But I really don't, so that would have confused him and the issue]. 

 

Pres. Barker: Alright, ok! In any event, Jon, that is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that there be rebaptism.

 

Jon: So, I mean, I’m officiating in that…

 

Pres. Barker: So, you shouldn’t teach that!

 

Jon: I don’t teach it, that’s the Church’s doctrine!

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, have you baptized your children?

 

Jon: Absolutely!

 

Pres. Barker: Ok, ok. That’s teaching it.

 

Jon: Well, I can teach it in my own family? Or no?

 

Pres. Barker: In order to remain a member..

 

Jon: So, you’re micromanaging, then…

 

Valarie: Let me testify, then.

 

Pres. Barker: Please, please. We asked to speak with your parents. You’re welcome to listen.

 

Valarie: Ok…

 

Jon: Let her talk! Let her talk! 

 

Pres. Barker: Brother, brother Jon…

 

Jon: No! Let her talk!!!

[prez slumps into his chair silenced by the force of the Spirit of God]

 

Valarie: You brought up a thing, and it’s not fair to speak a thing in my presence [and let it stand] when I know it’s false [and can rebut it]. He [pointing to me] offered something, only by preaching out of the scripture. He did not say, I will do this for you. He did not say, I am going out and doing it. I didn’t know he was doing it until I realized, by him bringing up scripture: O my gosh, Jesus commands me to be baptized. The only reason he gave it, was because God gave authority, and I asked. The only reason. So, don’t pin that on him, that’s all I’m saying.

 

Jon: Thank you for letting her speak.

 

Pres. Barker: Sure. Well, Jon. We’re going to go ahead and proceed. We’ll confer before we do so.

 

Jon: Alright.

 

Pres. Barker: But, apparently, this is what you believe and it’s what you’ve been taught, and you’re going to go with what you’ve been teaching. Is that what you’re going to continue to teach to your children?

 

Jon: Yeah! And just so I, just for the record, I do believe that it is a private matter and I’m not trying to take it public, I’m not trying to… I don’t use the Church’s words, I don’t use the Church’s implements, like I don’t use the same thing the Church uses.

 

Pres. Barker: I understand that.

 

Jon: So, our view is outside of that.

 

Pres. Barker: Then you should not have any difficulty with having…

 

Jon: So, it’s a separate ordinance!

 

Pres. Barker: …your relationship to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints severed, it sounds like.

 

Jon: Well, why would you want to do that to me, when I…

 

Pres. Barker: Because, it’s called apostasy.

 

Jon: No, apostasy is when you leave the truth, and the scriptures are telling me… I want to ask you something.

 

Pres. Barker: Please.

 

Jon: Can you quote a scripture that says: Repent, and rely on your baptism from 20 years ago?  It’s all present tense, President. All of it! And in Alma 5:62, it says, this is your Book of Mormon, whom the Church website still says is the most correct book on the earth, Alma 5:62 says, the members are commanded to be baptized, and the nonmembers are invited to be baptized. Why would members, who presumably were baptized, be commanded to be baptized? Well, for the same reason Joseph rebaptized people all the time, and so did Brigham Young. Because rebaptism is a fundamental core of the Doctrine of Christ; it’s "Be" baptized. Moroni 8:25 says, the firstfruits of repentance are… baptism! I don’t know about you guys, but I still sin! When I repent, the scripture, the most correct book on earth says, "the firstfruits of repentance are to be baptized!" It doesn’t say, the firstfruits of repentance are think back and remember [your last baptism]. Because, do you know when they started making the sacrament, [all about] ‘renewing your [baptismal] covenants’? If you study it out, it’s in the 1950’s, right when they stopped allowing rebaptisms. So, they changed the doctrine, to cover up the fact that they didn’t want people to do rebaptisms. It’s part of our history. You can pretend it doesn’t exist. We can all say, (in dramatic deep voice) "well, now the new guy…" Long live the King, right? Well, as soon as this king dies, what is the next guy going to say?

 

Pres. Ogden: Hey, Jon, let me ask you a question.

 

Jon: Yeah. Sure.

 

Pres. Ogden: You’re pretty adamant that you’re not teaching this, right?

 

Jon: Yeah.

 

Pres. Ogden: And you’re teaching us right now.

 

Jon: Well, you asked why I’m doing it! So, I feel I’m obligated to tell you, doctrinally.

 

Pres. Ogden: Right. You don’t do this outside of your family? You don’t teach this to others?

 

Jon: Uh, no, that’s true. People do come to me, but I don’t seek them out.

 

Pres. Ogden: So, you’re teaching them!

 

Jon: So, if someone…

 

Pres. Ogden: Because they’re coming to you…

 

Jon: Well, see, that’s where I differ. I don’t call it teaching, I call it a discussion on the gospel. They come and tell me stuff that they believe… kind of like you, you meet with your friend about your car. So, my whole life is the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I don’t actively seek to recruit people, proselyte people; I don’t go out and try to convince them to my way. If someone comes and says, Jon, what do you believe about the doctrine of Christ? I’ll open up 2 Nephi 31-2, I’ll open up 3 Nephi 18 and I’ll read the scriptures! And I’ll say, well, what do you think? And they’re like, well that sounds like I should be baptized if I want to repent!

 

Pres. Ogden: A few more questions. You’re baptizing other people besides your family?

 

Jon: Sure.

 

Pres. Ogden: Ok.

 

Jon: When asked, yeah.

 

Pres. Ogden: When asked? How many? Just out of curiousity.

 

Jon: A lot. I’ve been doing this since 2012.

 

Pres. Ogden: Since 2012.

 

Jon: Absolutely.

 

Pres. Ogden: And up until then, you were fine with most of the doctrine, following the prophet of the Church?

 

Jon: I still follow the prophet.

(As an aside, I do understand the difference between receiving prophets and following them. But I was interrupted and we never got back to it. This is one of the many ways I failed in this interview as I should have clarified what I meant and not let this statement stand.)

 

Pres. Ogden: Ok, well you followed him. You kind of made it sound like: "President Monson, good guy up there." But do you believe that he has authority from God, just like you claim to have?

 

Jon: Yeah, yeah!

 

Pres. Ogden: You think he does as well?

 

Jon: Well, I’ll quote you his words.

 

Pres. Ogden: No, I just want a yes or no answer.

 

Jon: No, no! I want to quote you his words, because it’s important. In the April 2010 General Conference, in his talk, you can look it up, he says: 

My testimony of Christ is based on the eye-witness accounts of others who have seen him. 

I don’t believe President Monson would lie. I actually believe he’s trustworthy. When he testifies, over the pulpit in General Conference, that his testimony of Jesus is based on the eye-witness accounts of others, I believe him. So, no! I don’t think he’s talked to Jesus! Because he told me he didn’t!

Pres. Ogden: Never! He’s never…

 

Jon: He said his witness of Christ was based on the eye-witness accounts of others. That’s recent!

 

Pres. Ogden: So, you don’t believe he’s a prophet of God similar to how you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You believe he is…

 

Jon: Ok!

 

Pres. Ogden: Hold on! You believe he is the President of the Church and he has the right to take care of all the temporal affairs of the church: buy land, church buildings. But as far as speaking with the Lord, being a prophet just like Joseph was… Because I believe he was a prophet just like Joseph was. He is a prophet just like Joseph was. I believe he has the authority to do so, and he holds the priesthood keys.

 

Jon: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Pres. Ogden: But you don’t believe that.

 

Jon: That’s not true. I believe he can, but when he testifies… see, it’s an obligation, a scriptural edict, that when any leader of the Church has seen God, or had a revelation, that they state so. So, when he states exactly opposite, in public, over the pulpit, I just believe him. I’m not disbelieving that he doesn’t. What I’m saying is, he’s never told me that he has. So, where has he said, ‘I’ve received prophesy’? He never has; I’ve searched! And searched! And searched!

 

Pres. Ogden: Ok, Kari, do your beliefs differ at all from your husbands? Or…

 

Kari: No.

 

Pres. Ogden: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, just so I’m clear on your feelings about President Monson, I’ve never heard him talk about rebaptism.

 

Jon: Sure!

 

Pres. Barker: Ok, so, you think he’s gone astray on that?

 

Jon: No, I don’t judge him on that at all.

 

Pres. Barker: Well, do you think that Church Doctrine… Because the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it exists today, does not teach rebaptism.

 

Jon: So, I would ask, where’s the scriptural proof of that?

 

Pres. Barker: Well, let’s just assume…

 

Kari: And I would say that they need to repent and follow the scripture!

 

Jon: Look, we’re under condemnation.

 

Kari: We’re under condemnation!

 

Jon: Do you believe that President Benson was a prophet?

 

Pres. Barker: Yeah, yeah I do.

 

Kari: We’re not taking this seriously!

 

Jon: We’re under condemnation because we refuse to abide the precepts of the most correct book.

 

Kari: We’re trying to remove that from us. If the church wants to, [do something else] that’s fine. Individually, I get to do it. I can’t control the Church, but I can control what happens now, and I’m going to follow this [gestures to Book of Mormon].

 

Pres. Ogden: And you… Your whole family has the right to believe how you want to.

 

Jon: Yeah, thank you.

 

Pres. Ogden: Obviously, all of us do. Doesn’t mean we have to agree on it.

 

Jon: Right, exactly. And I’m ok with that.

 

Pres. Ogden: You’re a little forceful! You’re a little, you’re a little argumentative in here.

 

Jon: I’m feeling a little bit… [under attack] because I just [got called] in to the Bishop’s office two days ago out of the blue, this is all in violation of Doctrine and Covenants, which requires that I have two witnesses against me. I’ve never seen the witness, never spoken to the witness.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, there’s three of us right here.

 

Jon: It’s actually a conflict of interest for the leaders to be the witnesses. There’s supposed to be a witness. Who told on us? Some guy, I know who he is...but that man should stand up and come and say, this is what, [and] this and that. But I’m not going to hide, so I just told the Bishop everything.

Pres. Ogden: Out of curiosity, in the Pioneer Ward, you feel, according to your visitation, how many visitations from the Lord have you had?

 

Jon: Oh… I don’t know, I haven’t counted.

 

Pres. Ogden: So, more than one.

 

Jon: Right, as Joseph says in Doctrine & Covenants 130: 3, the Lord says that…

 

Kari: You don’t want to hear the scriptures do you?

 

Pres. Ogden: Really?!

 

Kari: Really!

 

Jon: … the Second Comforter, the Lord will appear… It’s D&C 130:3, it says, the Lord will come from time to time and abide with thee.

Pres. Ogden: So, the Lord has told you that you’ve been given authority by the Lord?

 

Jon: Yeah.

 

Pres. Ogden: To perform the ordinances?

 

Jon: Yeah, But not to fight against the Church! He expressly forbid me from that! He said, don’t…

 

Pres. Ogden: Sure, sure. So, your sacrament is different from the sacrament…

 

Jon: Absolutely. The words are different, and the implements used are different. So that’s why I would suggest…

 

Pres. Ogden: So, out of curiosity, I was happy to see you guys at sacrament today, why, why are you…

 

Jon: Because, I’ve been Mormon all my life. Hopefully, I’ll remain a Mormon all my life. I want to be Mormon, and so I sustain President Monson.

 

Pres. Ogden: Not as a prophet.

 

Jon: No! I do sustain him as a prophet! That’s the name of his office.

 

Pres. Ogden: No, you said president.

 

Pres. Barker: But, let me just ask you…

 

Jon: Let me, let me clarify real quick and then you should tell me--So, if a Bishop calls a Gospel Doctrine teacher, and they suck, right? I still raise my hand and sustain them as a teacher. But that doesn’t mean they're actually a good teacher. So, a seer… so, like in the Book of Mormon, when they bring the Jaredite plates to king Benjamin, who translates them? King Benjamin!

[I was cut off here. The thought continuing is: when they have ancient records now do they bring them to President Monson as the "seer" or the "translator", to translate as in the Book of Mormon, or do they send them down to the scholars at the universities? His office may be called "prophet, seer and revelator" but does he exhibit the gifts?]

 

Pres. Ogden: Do you believe that President Monson speaks with the Lord just as you say you do?

Jon: I hope so, but I don’t know because he hasn’t told me. See the difference? He hasn’t told me that he has like Joseph did. Joseph would say, 'thus saith the Lord.'

 

Pres. Ogden: So, every prophet that we consider a prophet after Joseph Smith, you don’t necessarily consider a prophet unless you read that he’s said it…

 

Jon: Well, that’s what we forget in our short minds because our history…

 

Pres. Ogden: That’s a yes?

 

Jon: Well yes! But it’s clear and it’s based on history. See, we have a short memory and we think every prophet between Joseph and David O. McKay… we didn’t call prophet, we called them President. So, that didn’t happen in our lifetime, so we forget that. And so now today we want to place this man between us and God. I submit the number one reason for apostasy from Christ is: that the prophet can’t lead us astray. He’s not infallible. Every other dispensation, a man could lead people astray, but suddenly in ours, we have this man who’s infallible and can’t. I don’t believe that. I don’t think he is leading us astray. I’m saying the possibility exists that he could.

 

[here is another failing of mine, when I said, "I don't think he is leading us astray". By the church handbook of instructions own policies, the church or President Monson or whoever is in charge, IS leading us astray because they deny us unchanged ordinances and then forbid and try to force us not to perform them privately, thereby denying members the possibility of receiving the power of Godliness which is what we require to behold the face of God and live as per D&C 84. I should have clarified.]

Pres. Barker: But isn’t he leading us astray on rebaptism in your view? Just like your wife told…

 

Jon: No. Because, I’m free to pursue God according to the dictates of my conscience in private. It’s a private matter, which I’m asking you to just let me go my way in peace.

 

Pres. Ogden: If President Monson came out  next General Conference and said, I am a prophet, I speak with the Lord regularly just as Joseph did, what would be your remarks there?

 

Jon: I would like that actually. I would be…

 

Pres. Ogden: Would you consider him… so, based on that, he’s a prophet because he has stated he has spoken with the Lord? Cause that’s kind of what you hinged it on.

 

Jon: No, Revelations 19: 10 says, the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus, meaning Jesus has testified to you of your standing, he’s given you calling and election, or he’s stating he’s testified to the Father. So, that’s the sacrament prayer, right? That Christ is going to witness to the Father of our unworthiness or worthiness. That’s why it’s so critical we’re worthy before we partake. If the firstfruits of repentance is baptism, then it’s probably a good idea, if you want to be clean or worthy before you take the sacrament, to get baptized first. See the progression?

 

Pres. Ogden: Do you consider yourself a prophet?

 

Jon: No.

 

Pres. Ogden: That you’ve spoken with the Lord more times than you can count?

 

Jon: Well, if you define it that way. But I don’t claim such, I just want to be clear: I don’t claim such, to be like--be your leader.

 

Pres. Ogden: Do the kids? Do you see your Dad as a prophet? Someone who has spoken with the Lord multiple times?

 

Valarie: I don’t know. That's his standing. I think all we can know is our own standing and let others pursue, trust they are…

 

Pres. Ogden: Right.

 

Jon: Yeah, I’m not trying to be the boss of my family either, I guess, really.

 

Pres. Ogden: So, if someone says, wow, you have spoken with the Lord face to face, he’s given you authority for these ordinances; Jon, are you a prophet? Your response is: yes or no.

 

Jon: I’d say no. I would say, he can give you the same thing if you fast and pray and go to him. Coming unto Christ means he’ll come to you, and that you can. It’s available for all. President Monson, all of you guys, me; it’s not exclusive to me. I claim no special privileges. I don’t think it’s any different from what we talk about as priesthood in the church, except that in the scriptures, there’s always an organization [which gives] from man to man, and then, like Moses, the Lord shows up. Enoch, the Lord shows up. Joseph, the Lord shows up. All throughout scripture, Jacob, Nephi, all of them! Almost every single man in the Book of Mormon has this priesthood given by men, and then God shows up after. And so, I look at the invitation of the Church as an invitation to receive priesthood and then I have to go to God to sanction it in order for me to have real priesthood power. And so I don’t believe that gives me any right to take authority from the Church. I delineate between authority to officiate… tell you guys what to do; I don’t have any right to go into my Bishop and say, you know what? God spoke to me and you… No! That’s… see, I get that, but in my private worship, I believe God can give me authority to officiate in ordinances that are salvific. And that’s the only reason I’m doing this: because I believe it’s saving. It is salvific to do the doctrine of Christ which is baptism and the sacrament.

 

Pres. Turley: That’s such a great contradiction, though, between your personal beliefs and what the church, you know, is teaching. Why would you want to stay in an organization that you feel is so contradictory to you what you believe personally? If the leaders are off…

 

Jon: Yeah. It’s a good question.

 

Pres. Turley: …then why are you still following, coming to and following the Bishop when he presides over different meetings? Why?

 

Jon: Because in the early days of the church they didn’t conflate the issues. Joseph Smith said to the Relief Society, your minds are darkened because you’re relying too much on the prophet. So, he was pushing people away from reliance on him. He was asking them to go get their own witness. So, I don’t see it as contradictory. The only faults I see in the presiding men of the church, the only value I see in that, (finding fault) is to help me understand that the Holy One of Israel is the one who is the Keeper of the Gate, that Christ is the One that Saves. Outside of that, of course they’re making mistakes! Of course they’re doing bone-headed things. Joseph did bone-headed things, right? His banks failed, he declared bankruptcy. I mean, you can look at the history, and Joseph was this mess up. And yet today we claim they can’t mess up and it doesn’t make sense to me. So, I can see they’re messing up in the business side of things, and it doesn’t bother me, because I’m not looking to them for salvation. So, to me, the Church is the--it’s God’s Church, not President Monson’s. I’ve sworn allegiance to Him, I’ve covenanted with God, I’ve covenanted to obey the scriptures, I’ve covenanted to hold fast to the iron rod, which Nephi says is the word of God. I can’t get that from a man. I have to get it from God. That’s what the scriptures continually tell me. Nephi, Alma, they all go to the Lord. So, I don’t see it as a contradiction at all. I love these men, I really do. I’ve grown up with them. I’m just not looking to them for salvation, because I recognize salvation comes from the one man who can give it: they Way, the Truth, and the Life; "I am the Holy One of Israel." (He says). This is all in our scriptures. So, I just want to, honestly, if you guys hadn’t been told by some guy that I was doing this, I would have continued for years, hopefully decades, until I died doing this in private. I wouldn’t have caused trouble, I wouldn’t have railed or fought. I still won’t! If you guys even, whatever, get mad and feel like you have to put your thumb on me, which I think is unnecessary. I’m begging you to just not.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, let me tell you what our standard is.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: If you teach as church doctrine…

 

Jon: I don’t.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, aren’t you teaching that, as you just expressed, rebaptism is what the church doctrine…

 

Jon: No! I’m teaching that the scriptures teach that. The Church is teaching something different. I’m in line with the scriptures, but I don’t claim the right to tell them what to do, so I just let them go.

 

Kari: See the difference?

 

Jon: But go ahead and do the Church thing...

 

Pres. Ogden: Every question, though, I’ve asked you, you’ve taught. But you say you don’t teach! I don’t understand.

 

Jon: So, would you rather me say, yes, no, and not teach you the doctrine that you seem to be either ignoring, ignorant of, or you’re choosing rebelliously against God to ignore, because I’m reading to you right from the truest book on the planet, and you’re saying, "well, that’s not our current doctrine." That’s offensive to me, and so I’m asking you let me just go away.

 

Pres. Barker: We can’t, Jon.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: Because you’re an ordained Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you persist in this way of thinking, we’ll need to hold a disciplinary council where excommunication will be considered.

 

Jon: Well, that’s your choice and I would beg you not to do it. I don’t want to leave the church. I don’t want to fight against the church, I never have. I want it on the record that I’m only following Christ. I believe there’s a difference between public and private; you’re a judge, you know that. There’s a difference, there’s a big difference. I’ve stayed in honor with the Church by not speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed. I’ve stayed in honor by not publicly going out and trying to do this. I’ve stayed in honor by keeping this as private as possible. And I think that you guys have the authority to just go,  "well as long as you keep it private, go ahead; we’ll just do our public thing."

 

Pres. Barker: We don’t have that authority.

 

Jon: Well, the scriptures actually say that the Stake High Council is equal in authority to the twelve. Brigham Young changed that and conflated it to make the Twelve apostles have authority to tell you what to do. So, do you not think you have authority to just let me go?

 

Pres. Barker: We don’t; absolutely not.

 

Jon: Why not?

 

Pres. Barker: Because we need to follow… because that verse I read to you in D&C 107: 34 says that, the First Presidency and the quorum of the Twelve regulate all the affairs of the church, and that includes the ordinances, and you are participating…

 

Jon: Can’t you see I’m operating outside of the Church’s ordinances?

 

Pres. Barker: Not while you hold the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 

Jon: Well, I actually hold the priesthood after the order of the Son, if you would like to know.

 

Pres. Barker: Well, you were… I’m not going to argue with you. I’m just going to let…

 

Jon: No, I’m not arguing; I’m just clarifying what priesthood I hold, actually. And I would like to let you guys know that Doctrine & Covenants 121 says that "the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the powers of heaven." (Repeated again slowly and with emphasis) "The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected to the powers of heaven." INSEPARABLY! You can’t separate the priesthood from the Powers of Heaven. I have a connection with the Powers of Heaven. My priesthood will not end with a Church court, although you may think it does. It only allows the Lord to judge you by the standard you’re judging me with, and I’m begging you to give me mercy, so he can be merciful to you!

 

Pres. Barker: We appreciate that.

 

Jon: Honestly!

 

Pres. Barker: We appreciate that.

 

Jon: I really do...

 

Pres. Barker: I understand that.

 

Jon: …want mercy for you!

 

Pres. Barker: Thank you. Thank you.

 

Jon: I’m asking for that, for me so that I can just…

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, we need to proceed as I’ve outlined. Kari, the same would be true in this for you. We’d be happy to meet. We’d like to meet separately with each of you, if you would be willing to do that.

 

Jon: That’s up to Kari.

 

Kari: For… what? Separately for what?

 

Pres. Barker: Well, just to communicate. Just so we get… this is a serious matter and…

 

Jon: [whispered] Divide and conquer.

 

Pres. Barker: …we would not do this in front of your children. You… it’s a separate…

 

Jon: They actually requested to be excommunicated with us. I’m going to allow them to speak for themselves, but if they want...

 

Pres. Barker: And they will have that opportunity. They will each have that opportunity to do so. It will be a separate proceedings and…

 

Jon: Is there any way to do it as a family?

 

Pres. Barker: No, there is not. There is not. But those proceedings can be arranged for those… who’s been baptized? By… let me phrase it this way, Who’s been baptized by someone in the, under the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Not, rebaptism. Who’s been baptized?

 

[Valarie (19), Walker (17), Angela (15), Sterling (13), Natalie (12), raise hands.]

 

Pres. Barker: Ok, each of you, absolutely, will have to… you know, the Bishop will visit with you, and if this is what you believe, then, yes, the Bishop will have to go ahead and if that’s what you believe and you want to continue believing that, then you would not be able to remain a member in good standing in the Church.

 

Jon: And just so my kids know, and you all know, they are free to choose for themselves and they are not compelled by me, in any way. So, I just… I want them to know. I just want to testify to them. Please take his counsel seriously and do…

 

Pres. Barker:  … are willing to allow… certainly, you’re the parents and… well, if you’re over 18, so we typically do that for everybody under 18… we wouldn’t meet with any of your children without your permission.

 

Jon: Sure. And they’re free to make their own choice. So, if they stay a member, and that’s what they want, that’s fine with me. I would actually encourage it, actually. I would encourage my children to remain members.

 

Pres. Barker: Well, they wouldn’t be able to do that and accept rebaptism and…

 

Jon: Exactly.

 

Pres. Barker: …participate in any of the sacraments that you’re offering.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: So, they would not be able to remain members.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: Yeah, just so it’s clear. Do you kids understand that?

 

[multiple affirmations from the kids]

 

Pres. Barker: You can’t go and… I know it’s what your Dad believes and I know he believes it with all his heart, but it’s not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[multiple affirmations from the kids]

 

Pres. Barker: So, you would have to choose. Well, we’ll have the opportunity to confer and then we’ll… we can either speak on the phone, we have to do these things in writing to be in compliance with what we need to do. And they are separate from what the disciplinary councils are. I typically separate for each person, now. But the kids will, if they want to do that, I, we’ll get permission, because if they’d like you to be there I…

 

Jon: Well, is it different from stake to stake? Because I’ve read several stories where they excommunicated husband and wife, sometimes without even notifying the wife that she was on trial, but they just ex-ed her anyways.

 

Pres. Barker: No, we would not. This would be, this would be separate meetings.

 

Jon: And I’ve heard of children being at the same proceedings, so, that’s why I assumed it would be possible to do it together; it’s cause I’ve actually read accounts where it happened that way.

 

Pres. Barker: Well, that’s not… that may be right but that’s not my understanding of how it works.

 

Jon: Ok.

 

Pres. Barker: We would, we will confer, we’ll make sure we do it in a proper way and then we’ll…

 

Jon: So, will there be two witnesses that are called against me? Outside, that are…

 

Pres. Barker: There likely will not be witnesses different than those that…

 

Jon: Alright. And the Doctrine and Covenants says that it shall be tried on the scriptures? And it’s not according to the handbook? D&C actually has that verb-age, that the trial shall be done… Is it by the scriptures or by the handbook?

 

Pres. Barker: What we’ll follow is the doctrine of the Church…

 

Jon: So, the Handbook.

 

Pres. Barker: …of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is clearly based upon the scriptures.

 

Jon: Well, there’s glaring differences.

 

Pres. Barker: Jon, that’s your…

 

Jon: So, I’d like to see the witnesses and have them be able to face me.

 

Pres. Barker: Absolutely. Any evidences presented against you, you will be there for.

 

Jon: So, there will be an accuser outside of my own leaders? Or…

 

Pres. Barker: No, it may not be anybody different than us or your Bishop.

 

Jon: You guys have a bias then, it’s not a fair trial.

 

Pres. Barker: And you’re welcome to, if we’re not authorized to do it that way, we won’t; if we are, we will. And you’re welcome to appeal.

 

Jon: Alright. Yeah, I’ve been reading about it today and there are scriptures that say it should be done according to the scriptures, and I read the account, the handbook version, and it’s different, so…

 

Pres. Barker: Well, we will follow what the current doctrine is of the Church…

 

Jon: So, the handbook then. Ok!

 

Pres. Barker: …of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That’s what we will do.

 

Jon: Well, I object to that and…

 

Pres. Barker: That’s fine!

 

Jon: …I do not consent to being tried according to a Handbook, which I don’t have access to, and I’m not sure what it says exactly. I would implore you to please use the scriptures as written. Joseph was revealed to, directly from God, on how to proceed in these matters.

 

Pres. Barker: That’s why, it’s completely your choice to the extent that you participate or choose not to participate.

 

Jon: Well, scripturally I would have to be there, but ok.

 

Pres. Barker: It’s whatever you choose to do. Kari, same for you. And then, they’re likely to be held, because Jon’s a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, we go ahead, that will be held in a Stake setting; because you’re not a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, that will be held in the Bishopric for you to do it and if the children choose to go that route. So that’s how that works.

 

Kari: Well, thanks for telling me how it works.

 

Pres. Ogden: I think it’s helpful.

 

Pres. Barker: Yeah, and we’re happy to, if that’s the decision, very happy to meet, and confer and go over how we’ll proceed.

 

Jon: Well, my decision is not to be excommunicated, my decision is to be…

 

Pres. Barker: That’s not a choice you have.

 

Jon: Um, ok.

 

Pres. Barker: That’s what… That’s the…

 

Kari: That’s the decision he’s made. (Pointing to President Barker)

 

Pres. Barker: Yeah, right. Yeah. Your choice is whether to persist in your teaching.

 

Jon: Well, actually it’s to obey the covenants that I’ve made in the temple.

 

Pres. Barker: Yes, I understand that. (As an aside, it's incredible to me he just said he understands he would be asking me to break my temple covenants, but he's going to anyway!)

 

Jon: So, if you’re asking me to stop that, I would be breaking temple covenants. And honestly? I’d rather let you revile me and blasphemy against me than to break my covenants with God. So, I just wish you wouldn’t do that kind of stuff. Kind of sucks for you. I think it’s time to go.

 

Pres. Barker: Well, we love you guys. You look like a great group, and I can tell there’s some good people over here. And you’ve got parents that love you and care about you and that’s obvious to me. Why don’t we have a word of prayer? President Turley, would you offer that? Thank you so much!

(At this point we all laughed out loud at the preposterousness of the moment, where they are telling us with a smile they love us while they murder us. (Spiritually, at least to their understanding). Paul Toscano's remark came to my mind and made me laugh. He commented about his experience: "it was like being raped by the Care Bears". Yep. We're going to do this to you but we will smile and tell you we love you while we do it, so it's ok. Relax and enjoy it, we love you! This was the first time I had ever spoken to the Stake president and one of his counselors, and had met the other only one time briefly.)

This ended the interview. They told us that they would be filing the paperwork and we would be noticed when the trial was to be held. They also assured us repeatedly that we didn't need to show up to the trial.